Ukraine War discussion

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2406 posts

Uber Geek

#2879666 6-Mar-2022 09:59

From Russia where you...

Pump rounds into buildings of a Nuclear Power Plant.
Dunno probably they have nothing to do with running the plant.
You always put up random non essential buildings as part of a Nuclear Plant.
Oh look over there another building without broken windows.

Green Evacuation Zones and Ceasefires the Putin way...

Siege of Mariupol: Fresh Russian attacks throw evacuation into chaos
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60629851

""
"I'm right now in Mariupol, I'm on the street, I can hear shelling every three to five minutes," said Alexander, a 44-year-old engineer and resident of the city.

The green corridor set up to get people out was not working, he said.

"I can see cars of people who tried to flee and they are coming back. It is chaos."
""

Putin cut his teeth on Grozny, just shell it till its unlivable, then shell it some more.

Batman

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#2879667 6-Mar-2022 10:00

tdgeek:

When does this translate to terrorism?

It's only terrorism if North Americans, West Europeans are affected.

Asia, Africa, Eastern Europe, Central & South America does not count

freitasm

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Geekzone

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#2879676 6-Mar-2022 10:59

tdgeek:

K8Toledo:

NATO engaging Russian forces could be regarded as an act of war.

Russia engaging Ukraine is an act of war. Ukraine is a seperate, independent nation. While they are not a NATO member, is there a moral right to defend an innocent country? Defend Ukraine not attack Russia on Russian soil. While no one wants a world war or a Russia vs NATO/US war, where does it stop? Grozhny, Crimea, Donbass, the list will keep being added to, with impunity. What happens if USA decided to shore up its military position by attacking Ukraine, Donbass, Crimea, Sweden, Thailand, and so on? Same thing. The west is encouraging rogue nations to expand. The US has many defence forces in non US countries. It's for defence. Russia is attacking, it has destroying lived and buildings as well as military, it is now, it will continue to do so, unless someone tales a stand. If Ukraine said, yeah ok, we dont mind Russia governing us, then fine, but they didnt, so they are getting killed, right now there is a destroy everything until submission going on. If China soon attacked to take over Taiwan, the West cannot do anything at all, because allowing Russia to invade with impunity, an independent and sovereign nation is a precedent that the West is allowing to happen.

Ok, I think the time has come to allow comparisons to WWII, Nazi, etc - some mentions already in this thread.

Russia anexing Crimea and the other regions don't sound too different than Hitler taking the Sudetenland in 1938 (thanks to Chamberlain who "didn't want a war") and no different than Hitler taking Austria (Anschluss 1938), then moving into Poland.

Putin is doing the same. He's taking land and saying it's their right. Not different than Hitler's territorial ambitions.

So yes, while Ukraine is not part of NATO, when does it have to be too bad for others to intervene?

I personally think not defending Ukraine is the same as Chamberlain giving away the Sudetenland.

Sidestep

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#2879678 6-Mar-2022 11:06

tdgeek:

..allowing Russia to invade with impunity, an independent and sovereign nation is a precedent that the West is allowing to happen.

No one's allowed Russia to do anything. A trap was baited, he entered and now the walls are closing in - a terrific miscalculation by Putin. All part of the Great Game.

He'd planned a 48-hour shock and awe type of war, with the 'illegitimate' government of Ukraine quickly falling.
The defiance and steadfastness of the Ukrainians is something he completely miscalculated, along with his assessment of their military response, and US logistical support.

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has finally united NATO, Trump's ever more shrill pronouncements of Putin's genius and their great friendship are now radioactive.
He's rapidly reducing the scale of his goals, and no longer promising to split Ukraine with Belarus (instead he's vaguely promising them a Baltic seaport).

Obviously taking over the whole of the country's now a pipe-dream.
He'll be left with attempting to take Odessa and the Black Sea coast to link Luhansk with Moldova's breakaway Transnistria region, and maybe a Hail Mary shot at lands east of the Dnieper.
Even that's looking less likely by the hour.

The sanctions that virtually the whole western world has joined are completely unprecedented - and, unless eased, will destroy Russia's economy.
He's wailing that they're “akin to an act of war” - but after Zelenskiy's call to US senators this morning, they, the G7 and NATO vowed to impose further, tougher and stronger ones.

Of course they mean Energy. Russia's one remaining economic lifeboat.

Israeli Prime Minister Bennett flew into Moscow earlier today then to Berlin, where he's meeting German Chancellor Olaf Scholz.
He'll be offering Putin a way to back out while still saving some face.
Israel doesn't want an Iran nuclear deal - and release of their oil - to be seen as a way to replace Russia's about-to-be-embargoed energy in the world markets.

Sidestep

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#2879684 6-Mar-2022 11:31

Mastercard and Visa have just announced they're suspending all Russia operations. It was asked for in Zelenskiy's call to the US this morning.

Russians will have to use wheelbarrows full of Rubles to make their purchases from now on.

Edit: After reading their statements it looks as though they can only stop Russian cards from purchasing outside Russia, and foreign cards from being used in Russia.
So won't have as strong an effect as it should - but early days yet.

ezbee

2406 posts

Uber Geek

#2879691 6-Mar-2022 11:52

So we think we are a failure and perceive we are weak, nation building in the wrong places, we don't see the right ones.

Ukraine has that magic spark of identity, a sense of nationhood, you see it in unity of people to stand fast.
Against uncompromising force, a heartless implacable enemy, literally looking death in the face.

Its something of great value we, NATO/Europe/West convinced ourselves we are to weak to defend.

Draw a line on the map, a protection zone see if Putin will walk up to, or go over it.
Maybe its like the day the tanks rolled up to checkpoint Charlie, stared each other down and rolled back.
https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/standoff-checkpoint-charlie-1961/

Throw Putin's BS back at him you need a buffer for your security and protection, cos he's sooo powerful.
Its his argument in reverse he should recognize it.
Then diplomacy from position of leverage while sanctions bite.

He has named so many things a reason to toss Nukes, where do you go with that cave to every nuke threat ?
Putin may want to live in a bunker, I'm sure its not how his Generals and Oligarchs want to live.
So he ends when he gives an order no-one will obey down the chain and they find another solution.

decibel

316 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2879695 6-Mar-2022 12:17

K8Toledo:...NATO engaging Russian forces could be regarded as an act of war....

No, no, no - it would be a "special operation".

Kookoo

788 posts

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#2879696 6-Mar-2022 12:25

Sidestep:
tdgeek:

..allowing Russia to invade with impunity, an independent and sovereign nation is a precedent that the West is allowing to happen.

No one's allowed Russia to do anything. A trap was baited, he entered and now the walls are closing in - a terrific miscalculation by Putin. All part of the Great Game...

Ah, yes, of course. It's all a massive conspiracy to bait Putin into killing scores of Ukrainian soldiers and civilians, and get scores of his own soldiers killed. Because it's in the West's interest to allow him to form a land bridge into Moldova which he's going to invade next - it's a failed state anyway. And then to move on to the four ex-soviet stans which are ran by his puppets anyway. It all makes perfect sense. 🤦‍♂️

There is a good indicator of how the war is going for Russia - ruble to USD exchange rate. Of course it sank once Russia invaded, but what's been happening since then?

Early yesterday it was at $0.0081. Today it's at $0.01. That's a 25% improvement.

Hello, Ground!

kingdragonfly

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#2879698 6-Mar-2022 12:29

Washington Post: Trump’s effort to rewrite history on his support of NATO and Ukraine

Only days ago, Trump lauded Russian President Vladimir Putin as “very savvy” for making a “genius” move by declaring two regions of eastern Ukraine as independent states and dispatching Russian armed forces to seize them. “Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that’s wonderful,” Trump said Feb. 22 on the “Clay Travis and Buck Sexton” show, referring to the troops as “the strongest peace force I’ve ever seen.”

Of course, it turns out that Putin launched an invasion of all of Ukraine. With Ukraine putting up a gallant fight and the United States and its allies imposing harsh sanctions on Russia, Trump on Monday issued a defensive statement repeating falsehoods he regularly made during his presidency.

With Trump, it’s hard to know if he’s willfully ignorant or if he has simply swallowed his own spin. Far from being a savior of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, he frequently sought to undermine it. Here’s a quick guide to what’s wrong or misleading in his statement.

“It was me, as President of the United States, that got delinquent NATO members to start paying their dues, which amounted to hundreds of billions of dollars.”

tdgeek

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#2879699 6-Mar-2022 12:37

Sidestep:

Obviously taking over the whole of the country's now a pipe-dream.

The sanctions that virtually the whole western world has joined are completely unprecedented - and, unless eased, will destroy Russia's economy.
He's wailing that they're “akin to an act of war” - but after Zelenskiy's call to US senators this morning, they, the G7 and NATO vowed to impose further, tougher and stronger ones.

Of course they mean Energy. Russia's one remaining economic lifeboat.

Hard to say Point 1. Or it goes on and on and on, as he controls the cities with guns, but they cant control rural.

Sanction oil? Possibly. Russia is 11% of the global supply but clearly more in Europe. Can others top it up? Hopefully.

I HOPE that should Russia take over Ukraine, and bullets stop being fired, that the sanctions remain, none of this feeding the monkey as has happened in North Korea

tdgeek

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#2879700 6-Mar-2022 12:41

ezbee:

Then diplomacy from position of leverage while sanctions bite.

We need to fully engage in diplomacy, all the West wants is Russia pulls all troops out and pays the reparation. No deal? Ok, no deal. We tried, but we will give you shopping trolleys so your citizens can carry the grocery money, and one New World bag for what they bought, that happened in a previous major war

decibel

316 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2879713 6-Mar-2022 13:16

tdgeek:

I HOPE that should Russia take over Ukraine, and bullets stop being fired, that the sanctions remain, none of this feeding the monkey as has happened in North Korea

Totally agree - if the West sanctions stop when the bullets stop; it will all have been in vain - Putin will have won and then who is next?

SJB

2945 posts

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#2879719 6-Mar-2022 13:38

Biden needs to get much tougher. Putin knows Biden will never authorize military action unless he attacks a NATO country so he has plenty of scope for expansion before he even gets near a NATO country.

Russia should be on the same US terrorist list as North Korea and Iran. No trade whatsoever.

tdgeek

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#2879730 6-Mar-2022 13:58

SJB:

Biden needs to get much tougher. Putin knows Biden will never authorize military action unless he attacks a NATO country so he has plenty of scope for expansion before he even gets near a NATO country.

Russia should be on the same US terrorist list as North Korea and Iran. No trade whatsoever.

Better that NATO gets tougher, than another US led war.

Polish MIG 29s are back on the table

gzt

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#2879737 6-Mar-2022 14:11

decibel:
K8Toledo:...NATO engaging Russian forces could be regarded as an act of war....
No, no, no - it would be a "special operation".

Previous NATO operations have taken place only related to the defense article or security council resolutions:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_operations

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