Racism alive and well in Aotearoa

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Forums › Politics › Racism alive and well in Aotearoa

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Rikkitic

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#2130425 20-Nov-2018 15:12

6FIEND:

Rikkitic:

Again, it is not the intent that matters. It is the effect on those who witness it.

I'm not arguing that the float was "ok".

But I disagree with your statement above. The intent matters a great deal. It would/should determine which of two types of responses are made:

1) Your behaviour is ignorant and insensitive to many people and is no longer tolerated in our society. Please remedy this ASAP!

2) You're a racist and you should be ashamed of yourselves!

Most of all, I feel for the children who appear to have been inadvertently caught up in this :-(

If you do something that gravely offends someone, it is your act that offends, not your intent. They will be offended regardless.

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MikeAqua

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#2130430 20-Nov-2018 15:22

Rikkitic:

This is not about tweets or posts. It is about (white) people blackening their faces and parading.

My point is when someone tweets about it more people see it. Therefore people who weren't at the parade and would never have known are hurt.

Under your effects matter not intention argument, people who call something out are a problem as they increase the amount of hurt. The logical response is to sweep things under the carpet to minimise effects.

If we focus on effects not intentions ... then if people get away with something (no-one is hurt) everything is OK.

Mike

Rikkitic

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#2130441 20-Nov-2018 15:33

MikeAqua:

My point is when someone tweets about it more people see it. Therefore people who weren't at the parade and would never have known are hurt.

Under your effects matter not intention argument, people who call something out are a problem as they increase the amount of hurt. The logical response is to sweep things under the carpet to minimise effects.

If we focus on effects not intentions ... then if people get away with something (no-one is hurt) everything is OK.

I get what you are saying. I just don't agree with it. If you happen to be an African-American (or other black person, but especially African-American) and you witness a parade in blackface sail by, the effect on you is going to be much more intense than reading about it on Twitter. The two cannot be compared. I am not arguing that such offensive behaviour should not be called out. That is twisting my point. Bad behaviour is bad behaviour, regardless of the excuse. Pointing it out is something else altogether.

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MikeAqua

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#2130490 20-Nov-2018 16:09

Rikkitic:

I am not arguing that such offensive behaviour should not be called out. That is twisting my point. Bad behaviour is bad behaviour, regardless of the excuse. Pointing it out is something else altogether.

I know you're not arguing that, but it's an inevitable extension of "effects matter and intentions don't".

If intentions don't matter then behaving badly and pointing out bad behaviour are initially ethically indistinguishable.

If we disregard intent, then from a purely logical perspective we don't know which is worse until we have measured effects.

If we look only at effects, butterflies have a lot to answer for.

In reality we look at both intent and effect and it's pretty obvious bad behaviour is worse from a pragmatic standpoint.

Mike

Rikkitic

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#2130495 20-Nov-2018 16:26

I may have to give you that one. Let me think about it for awhile. It doesn't feel right but I'm not sure how to pursue it. Maybe the answer, as you suggest, is both matter, but one matters more than the other.

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chatterbox

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#2130574 20-Nov-2018 19:27

I have to admit I don't remember the last time I came across racism but I know that if I did I would give them the silent treatment and figure they weren't well educated. Colour I believe has little to do with anything. Brains on the other hand....

Never say never

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#2154786 5-Jan-2019 11:42

Mechanic allegedly calls a real-estate agent "terrorist" because he is "'dark, swarthy guy' with a beard".

"Wallace said he was having a laugh when he called the man a terrorist. "I said, oh you look like a bit of a terrorist, just like that, joking around," he said."

Racists will be racists and not even admit it.

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#2154787 5-Jan-2019 11:45

Also on this note, there's a white supremacist movement around the Wellington region, who meets in public places, etc. They spread posters around the city. Their website has photos of their members at pubs and bars - all with their faces covered.

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#2161706 15-Jan-2019 18:35

New Plymouth Councilor has no problems with confederate flag, black face and is ashamed of singing the Maori version of the New Zealand National Anthem.

The NZ Herald failed to mention the word "racism" in the entire article.

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Rikkitic

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#2161709 15-Jan-2019 18:50

I'm ashamed that we have such councillors in New Zealand.

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#2161918 16-Jan-2019 10:53

To clarify issues like this it can be helpful to try the shoe on the other foot. If you lived in a country where white faces are a minority, and witnessed a parade of black people with their faces painted white, representing a group you regard as well principled, under an anthem proclaiming racial equality (tagline "it doesn't matter if you're black or white"), then what would you make of it? Would you be offended?

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Rikkitic

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#2161921 16-Jan-2019 10:57

That is a fake argument. What makes blackface offensive to blacks is the long history of abuse that goes with it. Think slavery, lynchings, discrimination, mockery, humiliation, deprivation. Walk in those shoes for three hundred years and then make glib statements about how people shouldn't be so hypersensitive.

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Rikkitic

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#2161944 16-Jan-2019 12:13

And Chong has apologised. At least that shows even he understands that such comments are offensive to many people.

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