The politicisation of NZ's covid response

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Networkn
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#2870955 18-Feb-2022 15:58

GV27:

We've had people trying to present petitions to MPs harassed by protesters. MPs are having to make alternative arrangements to enter and exit safely.

So yea, the actual function of Parliament is being disrupted if people can't access it and people can't move about the grounds safely.

LOL, right?

Oh no! People having to move into a building a different way!? Kinda like they would if the grounds were being renovated, or a road repaved, or a building was deemed unsafe or any other thing. These are all relatively small inconveniences. If the harassment was as bad as you are suggesting, the police would be required to do something, and have already demonstrated they can and will. They are on the ground and much closer to the action, your information is coming (at least) second hand.

That does not warrant tear gas, nor launching cars into the sea or any of the other over the top responses I've seen people suggest.

Parliament operations are not being impacted in any significant manner and suggesting otherwise is silly.

GV27

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#2870963 18-Feb-2022 16:19

networkn:

That does not warrant tear gas, nor launching cars into the sea or any of the other over the top responses I've seen people suggest.

Parliament operations are not being impacted in any significant manner and suggesting otherwise is silly.

Having MPs fearing for their safety on the grounds of parliament is significant in a modern western democracy.

I can't put it any blunter than that.

You can decide how serious you want to take clearly tongue-in-cheek references to medieval siege weapons as a means of removing illegally parked vehicles, but if you want to trivialize the fact that journalists and parliamentarians cannot move about the capital city without fear of being threatened then I don't really know what I can say here.

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#2870974 18-Feb-2022 16:36

GV27:

Having MPs fearing for their safety on the grounds of parliament is significant in a modern western democracy.

I can't put it any blunter than that.

You can decide how serious you want to take clearly tongue-in-cheek references to medieval siege weapons as a means of removing illegally parked vehicles, but if you want to trivialize the fact that journalists and parliamentarians cannot move about the capital city without fear of being threatened then I don't really know what I can say here.

The police obviously don't consider the threats credible or actionable given they regularly prosecute people who threaten politicians outside the setting of this protest.

There is also a difference between feeling threatened and being threatened.

As I have said multiple times but you seem determined to ignore, the police have already acted to remove people they considered an active threat or who cross a behavioural threshold. I am unsure why you think they wouldn't again? The police have significant offensive capability if it's required, but they are taking a different approach. Perhaps consider the reasons why a bit longer..

Ge0rge

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#2870978 18-Feb-2022 16:49

networkn:

As I have said multiple times but you seem determined to ignore, the police have already acted to remove people they considered an active threat or who cross a behavioural threshold. I am unsure why you think they wouldn't again? The police have significant offensive capability if it's required, but they are taking a different approach. Perhaps consider the reasons why a bit longer..

Apart from those at their abject failure at crowd control last Thursday aside, which people have they arrested? They can't do it again by their own admission - “Police’s current assessment of the situation is that any enforcement action by Police runs a serious risk of much wider harm than the protest is presently creating" - Police Commissioner Coster to NZ Media today.

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#2870982 18-Feb-2022 16:54

Ge0rge:

networkn:

As I have said multiple times but you seem determined to ignore, the police have already acted to remove people they considered an active threat or who cross a behavioural threshold. I am unsure why you think they wouldn't again? The police have significant offensive capability if it's required, but they are taking a different approach. Perhaps consider the reasons why a bit longer..

Apart from those at their abject failure at crowd control last Thursday aside, which people have they arrested? They can't do it again by their own admission - “Police’s current assessment of the situation is that any enforcement action by Police runs a serious risk of much wider harm than the protest is presently creating" - Police Commissioner Coster to NZ Media today.

At near the start of the protest, 120 people were arrested and removed from the site.

The fact they aren't taking action now, is because they deem the crowd behaviour doesn't warrant it. (Ie no immediate danger)

That also states 'current' assessment, which is likely being monitored constantly. If things get out of control again, they will evaluate the action and execute the course of action required.

GV27

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#2870983 18-Feb-2022 16:56

networkn:

As I have said multiple times but you seem determined to ignore, the police have already acted to remove people they considered an active threat or who cross a behavioural threshold. I am unsure why you think they wouldn't again? The police have significant offensive capability if it's required, but they are taking a different approach. Perhaps consider the reasons why a bit longer..

I'm not ignoring it. You are ignoring the fact those people became violent when the police actually attempted to enforce the law. So what is the solution there? Just totally capitulate and abandon all pretense at enforcement because some people got mad? Of course they're 'chill' now - they're just being allowed to do whatever they want.

The 'different approach' is one they are now locked into because the protest has been so badly managed and should have been cleared as soon as the trespass order was not complied with, instead of letting them double-down over the first weekend.

Now we have a bizarre shanty-town in our government precinct, and people defending the rights of the protesters to just basically do what they want while they make explicit threats to core institutions in our society like the press and our parliamentarians on the grounds of parliament.

networkn

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#2870990 18-Feb-2022 17:12

GV27:

I'm not ignoring it. You are ignoring the fact those people became violent when the police actually attempted to enforce the law. So what is the solution there? Just totally capitulate and abandon all pretense at enforcement because some people got mad? Of course they're 'chill' now - they're just being allowed to do whatever they want.

I'm not ignoring it. The bottom line is the police removed those who became violent and unruly. I expect them to do so again if required. The difference being how much of a problem either of us considers these people to be. The police on the ground obviously consider the problem to be below the threshold for a violent removal and have assessed the impact to day to day operations to be far less serious than you believe it is. They are there on the ground and seeing it first hand. They will be closely monitoring, and there are specialists within the police who analyse crowd behaviour for a living. They will be able to see patterns that may change their stance on it.

Now we have a bizarre shanty-town in our government precinct, and people defending the rights of the protesters to just basically do what they want while they make explicit threats to core institutions in our society like the press and our parliamentarians on the grounds of parliament.

They can't do whatever they want, it's just that what they want, doesn't warrant a nuclear approach to preventing whatever they are doing, which the police have assessed as less serious than you are making it out to be.

Does it have the potential to be a really big problem, sure, totally, and if it does, and the police decide batons and rubber bullets are required, then they would have my support. But that is for them to decide as the people who are on the ground and dealing with these people.

I guess at the end of the day we differ in our thresholds. I don't consider what is happening *currently* warrants bludgeoning people with truncheons to satisfy a bit of public blood lust brought on by the frustration many understandably feel with the limitations, challenges and misery of being in the middle of a pandemic. This group have become a bit of a lightning rod for expressing that frustration. It's not that I can't see why people feel that way, I am just trying my best to keep the emotion out of it.

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Ge0rge

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#2870991 18-Feb-2022 17:18

networkn:

At near the start of the protest, 120 people were arrested and removed from the site.

The fact they aren't taking action now, is because they deem the crowd behaviour doesn't warrant it. (Ie no immediate danger)

That also states 'current' assessment, which is likely being monitored constantly. If things get out of control again, they will evaluate the action and execute the course of action required.

At near the start of the protest, the crowd behaviour was the same as it is now - albeit there were significantly less than there are now. Police still decided to try and evict the people who were there, an action at which they failed miserably. Of the 120 or so people that were arrested during that fruitless endeavour, many are back again - "naked oiled up lady" was (clothed) and on the steps talking to the crowd days later.

Things aren't any more "in" or "out" of control now than they were on Thursday - the difference is the Police now know they're on a hiding to nothing.

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#2871027 18-Feb-2022 19:25

At this point the police have zero credibility that they’ll do anything in particular.

This week it’s gone from: “move or we’ll tow your cars” to “we’re getting da army to tow your cars” to “we’re towing your cars tomorrow” to “jk we’re too scared to tow your cars”

Why would anyone take what they’re saying seriously?

Beccara

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#2871043 18-Feb-2022 20:23

I also dont think there's "blood lust" either, the situation is deteriorating by the hour and the public have seen zero progress to impede the protesters physical progress

A simple cordon is apparently too much to ask as protesters are setting up long term infrastructure and creeping further and further blocking more entrances to the ground and the extra Tamaki convoy turning up this weekend is going to block more of the surrounding area and further fracture the group.

Here's the rough change over the past 24-36 hours according to Henry Cooke of Stuff, looking thru the various live feeds today it looks correct

I think a lot of people would be less critical if the protest was contained, even if it went on for 1-2-3-4+ weeks

Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

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Handle9

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#2871044 18-Feb-2022 20:26

I don't think having a long term peaceful protest on the lawn at parliament is a problem. It's the impact on the surrounding area and the extremely anti-social behavior that is the problem.

Beccara

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#2871047 18-Feb-2022 20:33

"The number of protesters' vehicles parked around the Parliamentary precinct, most illegally, has nearly doubled in two days.

Police confirmed on Friday evening they believe there are now 800 vehicles in the vicinity."

Technofreak

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#2871071 18-Feb-2022 22:00

The idiots are now in charge of the asylum.The New Zealand Police have lost all credibility and are a laughing stock in my opinion.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300521075/police-seemingly-cede-control-to-protesters-who-are-now-controlling-access-to-parliament-grounds-adding-vehicles

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quickymart

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#2871083 18-Feb-2022 23:08

Couldn't they maybe just fence it off to stop any new ones arriving? Okay there's lots of cars there now, but how about sealing it off so no more can get in?

arcon

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#2871131 19-Feb-2022 00:04

Technofreak:
The idiots are now in charge of the asylum.The New Zealand Police have lost all credibility and are a laughing stock in my opinion.

What's sad is the men & women on the front line are doing their honerable best, but Coster and his brass have utterly failed them and are treating protestors like normal people - they aren't.

Mentally deluded people do not ever listen to reason.
You might be able to control or trick one via suggestion, not dozens or hundreds.

Coutts is joining next week who is as dumb as a donkey with his Nazi rhetoric. I hope to god a politician isn't silly enough to meet him. It ends in total capitulation or violence, so its better to deal with it before it gets too big.

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