North Korea

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#1876015 2-Oct-2017 11:36

MikeB4:

Fred99:

Wiggum:

MikeB4:

I did not say that Kim does not treat his people badly, I am saying the Trump is also guilty of this.

There is actually no comparison. NK is a communist state.

No it's not.

Correct its a Unitary one party state with a totalitarian dictatorship. A communist state is one which is lead by the people and the state is invisible, this is not the case in NK. The Kim dynasty is the absolute ruler of the nation and the people are totally subservient

Not sure about that. Vietnam is a communist state, yet the 'state' is most assuredly very visible!

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#1876036 2-Oct-2017 11:57

Interesting read.

Kiwis don't realise just how much North Korean bombs could affect them.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/97296667/us-ambassador-kiwis-dont-realise-just-how-much-north-korean-bombs-could-affect-them

MikeB4

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#1876041 2-Oct-2017 12:07

Wiggum:

Interesting read.

Kiwis don't realise just how much North Korean bombs could affect them.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/97296667/us-ambassador-kiwis-dont-realise-just-how-much-north-korean-bombs-could-affect-them

We need to be concerned if the US or other nations d back NK into a corner where they do something like this. I think it arrogant that this numpty thinks we don't understand, NZ has a nuke free policy because we do understand and probably more so than the US. If Trump left it up to Tillerson and the professional Diplomats and stop his childish rants things would progress and the impasse solved.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

MikeB4

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#1876042 2-Oct-2017 12:08

Geektastic:

Not sure about that. Vietnam is a communist state, yet the 'state' is most assuredly very visible!

Vietnams Government is no comparison to North Korea

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Fred99

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#1876049 2-Oct-2017 12:20

Wiggum:

Fred99:

Our views are mainly different in that you appear convinced that a military solution which will almost certainly result in the deaths of vast numbers of innocent people - is justified under the circumstances, but you clearly don't understand the circumstances - nor show any inclination whatsoever to try to understand.

And the part that you are missing and failing to understand is that doing nothing will have dire consequences.

Clearly you do not realize that diplomacy has failed.

Try to come up with some suggestions then. But if you going to keep on with the "do nothing" approach, then I will keep reminding you that its a terrible idea.

Actually - you're completely wrong.

The world isn't "doing nothing".

If the US takes first strike action against NK, then China have very clearly stated that they'll retaliate against the US to protect NK. The consequence of that is infinitely worse than (the US) "doing nothing".

Diplomacy has failed to prevent NK from obtaining nuclear weapons, jsut as it failed to prevent India, Pakistan, and Israel from obtaining nuclear weapons. If that means to you that "diplomacy fails - so let's have war" then that's a very stupid attitude.

Fred99

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#1876054 2-Oct-2017 12:33

MikeB4:

Wiggum:

Interesting read.

Kiwis don't realise just how much North Korean bombs could affect them.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/97296667/us-ambassador-kiwis-dont-realise-just-how-much-north-korean-bombs-could-affect-them

And if the US or other nations do not back NK into a corner where they do something like this. If Trump left it up to Tillerson and the professional Diplomats and stop his childish rants things would progress and the impasse solved.

Scott Brown is here to represent the POTUS and administration - and that's what he's trying to do. If that involves trying to scare NZ into submission so that NZ becomes an active supporter of Trump's insane behaviour, then he's pushing proverbial uphill. If he goes a step further in what he's saying - then he'll get the deserved push-back from NZ politicians of all persuasions

“Forget it, until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that ten million people in Seoul don’t die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons, I don’t know what you’re talking about, there’s no military solution here, they got us.”

That's from Steve Bannon. I think he's a detestable POS, but on matter of military strategy and history, he's fanatically obsessed and expert. That he and Trump had a falling out isn't surprising. Trump wouldn't like to be reminded of his impotence.

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Fred99

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#1876055 2-Oct-2017 12:39

Geektastic:

MikeB4:

Fred99:

Wiggum:

MikeB4:

I did not say that Kim does not treat his people badly, I am saying the Trump is also guilty of this.

There is actually no comparison. NK is a communist state.

No it's not.

Correct its a Unitary one party state with a totalitarian dictatorship. A communist state is one which is lead by the people and the state is invisible, this is not the case in NK. The Kim dynasty is the absolute ruler of the nation and the people are totally subservient

Not sure about that. Vietnam is a communist state, yet the 'state' is most assuredly very visible!

I'd have to google to find a reference, but IIRC Trump is more popular in Vietnam than just about any other country polled. That's a side issue and a little off-topic I know, but we live in very strange times.

sen8or

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#1876061 2-Oct-2017 12:46

Perhaps they both need to rent a movie and watch a few scenes - Crimson tide

Geektastic

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#1876268 2-Oct-2017 17:07

MikeB4:

Geektastic:

Not sure about that. Vietnam is a communist state, yet the 'state' is most assuredly very visible!

Vietnams Government is no comparison to North Korea

I did not suggest it was. I was merely querying your definition of communism.

The Vietnamese government, as an aside, is far from benign, however. I had discussions with contacts there recently who had friends in prison because they had openly criticised the government on Facebook.

MikeB4

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#1876276 2-Oct-2017 17:21

Geektastic:

MikeB4:

Geektastic:

Not sure about that. Vietnam is a communist state, yet the 'state' is most assuredly very visible!

Vietnams Government is no comparison to North Korea

I did not suggest it was. I was merely querying your definition of communism.

The Vietnamese government, as an aside, is far from benign, however. I had discussions with contacts there recently who had friends in prison because they had openly criticised the government on Facebook.

My definition was not mine but that of Karl Marx. However most if not all "communist" regimes did not follow Marx ideals.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

tdgeek

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#1877003 4-Oct-2017 09:17

I feel we should let NK be. As stated, diplomacy hasn't worked, he is nuclear armed. War would not be a good idea. As mentioned we dont want to back NK into a corner, so lets leave them be. They have some goals. Nuclear armed so the US wont attack. Fake idea, but whatever, they have achieved the goal of nuclear armament. They want to be recognised. Sorry, that better not happen, you dont earn recognition by being a tard to the rest of the world. He wants economic help to rebuild or build or develop his country. That better not happen, same reasons as last sentence.

Leave him be. Report his goings on, but dont even respond. Diplomacy doesnt work with him, so no diplomacy, no contact, no threats, just leave him be.

What if he detonates a nuclear weapon in the Pacific? I guess thats too bad for the world. Dont worry about it. After all, the world has allowed him to participate in such activities. Its only nuclear fallout in the air and in the sea. Maybe then someone will sort him out.

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MikeAqua

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#1877304 4-Oct-2017 15:30

North Korea is actually called a democratic republic . In reality it is a blend of Stalin-ism and Fascism.

There are plenty of independent first hand accounts of life and govt in NK. Or there is 1984 (Orwell).

NK wasn't recently seen as anything more than a local threat after the collapse of communism until they started developing nukes. They were just a weird reclusive state that caused trouble with South Korea and by extension the US but were no real threat.

KJU needs tension with the rest of the world to portray the NK as having many external enemies, so he can crisis manage the country in war ready state; and so his people don't look too hard at (overthrow) their own govt. It's also the only leverage he has internationally to negotiate for economic aid.

KJU doesn't actually want war because he knows he can't win. Any ICBMs NK launches, will be shot down.

It won't be like the 1950s, US bombers with fighter escorts can apparently go anywhere in NK undetected. Subs can pop up off NKs coast(s). It will be cruise missiles and bombs for breakfast lunch and dinner for a month.

China may feel a degree of responsibility for NK but its economy depends on foreign trade with NK's 'enemies'. If push comes to shove China will have to either: -

(a) Side with their trade partners (i.e. the world excluding NK); or

(b) Start (lose) WW3.

Mike

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#1877424 4-Oct-2017 19:23

Good analysis Mike. The big difficulty is the proximity of Should to NK and the huge number of civilian death that would be called there if a war starts
If only there were a way to start an overthrow from within

Fred99

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#1877442 4-Oct-2017 19:47

shk292: Good analysis Mike. The big difficulty is the proximity of Should to NK and the huge number of civilian death that would be called there if a war starts
If only there were a way to start an overthrow from within

So little we know of DPRK internal political structure, finding out how to do that might be almost impossible - but KJU may not be "the" problem.

He may have the title of supreme commander and chairman, but there's a party behind him - who put him there, and he may be little more than a puppet - a creation of a "popular god-emperor" to give face to a a brutal regime.

Pure speculation I know. We love to mock him - but North Koreans may find his appearance, demeanor etc very appealing. Blow-up traitors with anti-aircraft guns - why hell yeah.

tdgeek

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#1877452 4-Oct-2017 20:16

MikeAqua:

North Korea is actually called a democratic republic . In reality it is a blend of Stalin-ism and Fascism.

There are plenty of independent first hand accounts of life and govt in NK. Or there is 1984 (Orwell).

NK wasn't recently seen as anything more than a local threat after the collapse of communism until they started developing nukes. They were just a weird reclusive state that caused trouble with South Korea and by extension the US but were no real threat.

KJU needs tension with the rest of the world to portray the NK as having many external enemies, so he can crisis manage the country in war ready state; and so his people don't look too hard at (overthrow) their own govt. It's also the only leverage he has internationally to negotiate for economic aid.

KJU doesn't actually want war because he knows he can't win. Any ICBMs NK launches, will be shot down.

It won't be like the 1950s, US bombers with fighter escorts can apparently go anywhere in NK undetected. Subs can pop up off NKs coast(s). It will be cruise missiles and bombs for breakfast lunch and dinner for a month.

China may feel a degree of responsibility for NK but its economy depends on foreign trade with NK's 'enemies'. If push comes to shove China will have to either: -

(a) Side with their trade partners (i.e. the world excluding NK); or

(b) Start (lose) WW3.

Its down to what I bolded

He can NEVER be given foreign aid. NEVER. The globe can and does cooperate, it cannot be subject to extortion

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