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#2005263 30-Apr-2018 15:32

Rikkitic:

Sure, but then it has to be truth. Some of your assertions are backed by reasonably solid fact but some are also just telling whoever will listen for the hundredth time that the government lies and doesn't know how to govern. That is opinion, and not very objective opinion either. The truth in nearly all cases is somewhere in-between the claims and counterclaims. This government has made mistakes. So did the last one. It is not all one or the other.

Mistakes? You can sugar coat it, if you want to make yourself feel better, but I think we are beyond mistakes.

The evidence is pretty clear Labour can't properly govern and have lied (or are you disputing the fact they lied?). Open a newspaper, it's not hard to see.

Of course, it's all a matter of what someone wants to see. Confirmation Bias is a real thing.

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#2005267 30-Apr-2018 15:36

networkn:

Rikkitic:

Sure, but then it has to be truth. Some of your assertions are backed by reasonably solid fact but some are also just telling whoever will listen for the hundredth time that the government lies and doesn't know how to govern. That is opinion, and not very objective opinion either. The truth in nearly all cases is somewhere in-between the claims and counterclaims. This government has made mistakes. So did the last one. It is not all one or the other.

Mistakes? You can sugar coat it, if you want to make yourself feel better, but I think we are beyond mistakes.

The evidence is pretty clear Labour can't properly govern and have lied (or are you disputing the fact they lied?). Open a newspaper, it's not hard to see.

Of course, it's all a matter of what someone wants to see. Confirmation Bias is a real thing.

I think it's pretty disingenuous to say "Labour can't properly govern" and then follow it with a broad "open a newspaper" to back it up. It isn't unreasonable for the posters in the channel to ask for evidence that's specific.

I mean, I could say that the National Party is full of lecherous sexist predators, look it up in a newspaper from some time back... But that's a nonsense remark with no evidence attached...

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#2005271 30-Apr-2018 15:39

Join the Jacinda thread, plenty of people have posted evidence to support the claim.

Rikkitic

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#2005285 30-Apr-2018 15:42

networkn:

Mistakes? You can sugar coat it, if you want to make yourself feel better, but I think we are beyond mistakes.

The evidence is pretty clear Labour can't properly govern and have lied (or are you disputing the fact they lied?). Open a newspaper, it's not hard to see.

Of course, it's all a matter of what someone wants to see. Confirmation Bias is a real thing.

I honestly think you are fixated on the things you disapprove of to the extent that you cannot even consider other viewpoints. This is no longer a debate of ideas. It is just shouting down of anyone who doesn't agree. That is why I withdrew from the Ardern thread. I'm just tired of it.

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#2005543 30-Apr-2018 22:30

Rikkitic:

networkn:

Mistakes? You can sugar coat it, if you want to make yourself feel better, but I think we are beyond mistakes.

The evidence is pretty clear Labour can't properly govern and have lied (or are you disputing the fact they lied?). Open a newspaper, it's not hard to see.

Of course, it's all a matter of what someone wants to see. Confirmation Bias is a real thing.

I honestly think you are fixated on the things you disapprove of to the extent that you cannot even consider other viewpoints. This is no longer a debate of ideas. It is just shouting down of anyone who doesn't agree. That is why I withdrew from the Ardern thread. I'm just tired of it.

I have noticed the same thing, and I have been here longer than he.

I seldom participate anymore in these threads because I have concluded that far too many of the Right run true to their archetypal models - and as you say, you just get tired of it. Even when comprehensively refuted, they will typically then resort to tired old tactics like re-framing the debate, appeals to authority, etc, etc. I just don't have the energy.

As far as the health system goes, the answer is very simple: years of idiotic Neo-liberal ideology from across the entire political spectrum in NZ has resulted in broken services, greed, false economies and false efficiencies, and a whole slew of social ills. Neither National nor Labour are free from blame and while we could argue who has the majority of the blame, or who is responsible for this outrage or that debacle, the simple truth is BOTH HAVE BETRAYED NEW ZEALAND.

Honestly, both have had ample opportunity over the last 30 years to set things right and BOTH have failed, preferring to play games and act like children.

Indeed, it's hard to find any party I could give full support for. Although I think Ardern would like to change all that, she alone will not be enough. We need the majority of them to Grow The Fcuk Up - both sides - and get to work. And they simply will not do it while the People sit in forums like this arguing pot calls kettle black.

networkn

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#2006033 1-May-2018 14:41

Rikkitic:

networkn:

Mistakes? You can sugar coat it, if you want to make yourself feel better, but I think we are beyond mistakes.

The evidence is pretty clear Labour can't properly govern and have lied (or are you disputing the fact they lied?). Open a newspaper, it's not hard to see.

Of course, it's all a matter of what someone wants to see. Confirmation Bias is a real thing.

I honestly think you are fixated on the things you disapprove of to the extent that you cannot even consider other viewpoints. This is no longer a debate of ideas. It is just shouting down of anyone who doesn't agree. That is why I withdrew from the Ardern thread. I'm just tired of it.

I have gone to some lengths to justify my views on this Government. I am happy and willing to justify my views any time, I often post articles supporting those views.

By comparison, when you argue a point, you choose to use words like "hope". You talk about the mistakes you have seen Labour make, and then say "despite all of that, I hope they will be better than National".

I am very passionate about the state of the current Government. I feel ripped off for the way they promised to be honest and transparent. They have not delivered on that. I don't think many objective people could dispute that.

I do consider others viewpoints, I actually consider myself fair in that regard, I have changed my position on things from time to time when I can see clearly and evidentially that I am wrong.

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#2006043 1-May-2018 14:52

Brendan:

I have noticed the same thing, and I have been here longer than he.

I seldom participate anymore in these threads because I have concluded that far too many of the Right run true to their archetypal models - and as you say, you just get tired of it. Even when comprehensively refuted, they will typically then resort to tired old tactics like re-framing the debate, appeals to authority, etc, etc. I just don't have the energy.

To me, this is very passive aggressive and yet non-specific enough to be hard to challenge which I presume is the point.

I have yet to see someone "comprehensively refute" much if any criticism levelled at this Labours term so far (In the JA Thread for example). I have seen it back the other way.

"righties" are not the only one who uses reframing a debate, and other tactics you don't like. I have seen a lot of justification of Labours behaviour presented as "well national did it too".

Indeed, it's hard to find any party I could give full support for. Although I think Ardern would like to change all that, she alone will not be enough. We need the majority of them to Grow The Fcuk Up - both sides - and get to work. And they simply will not do it while the People sit in forums like this arguing pot calls kettle black.

The first part of your argument about who is to blame was logical, but this is completely off the chart illogical. Why would any politician not be able to do his or her paid duty because of what you and I are debating on this forum?

What JA wants to change, and what she is capable of changing, I think even you could admit are pretty far apart. She has shown very little leadership to this point. Offered opportunity to take strong positions on mistakes she and her party have made have been completely non existent. She talks a great talk.

David Clarke has chosen to spend the earliest part of his job and use it to make excuses for why not to fix it and how he wasn't aware and it's someone elses fault. Embarrassingly for him (I would hope) there is photographic evidence that refutes his claim.

If Labour TRULY want to fix it, they should just get on with fixing it. The time for talking was in the lead up to the last election.

MikeB4

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#2006069 1-May-2018 15:28

Brendan:

Rikkitic:

networkn:

Mistakes? You can sugar coat it, if you want to make yourself feel better, but I think we are beyond mistakes.

The evidence is pretty clear Labour can't properly govern and have lied (or are you disputing the fact they lied?). Open a newspaper, it's not hard to see.

Of course, it's all a matter of what someone wants to see. Confirmation Bias is a real thing.

I honestly think you are fixated on the things you disapprove of to the extent that you cannot even consider other viewpoints. This is no longer a debate of ideas. It is just shouting down of anyone who doesn't agree. That is why I withdrew from the Ardern thread. I'm just tired of it.

I have noticed the same thing, and I have been here longer than he.

I seldom participate anymore in these threads because I have concluded that far too many of the Right run true to their archetypal models - and as you say, you just get tired of it. Even when comprehensively refuted, they will typically then resort to tired old tactics like re-framing the debate, appeals to authority, etc, etc. I just don't have the energy.

As far as the health system goes, the answer is very simple: years of idiotic Neo-liberal ideology from across the entire political spectrum in NZ has resulted in broken services, greed, false economies and false efficiencies, and a whole slew of social ills. Neither National nor Labour are free from blame and while we could argue who has the majority of the blame, or who is responsible for this outrage or that debacle, the simple truth is BOTH HAVE BETRAYED NEW ZEALAND.

Honestly, both have had ample opportunity over the last 30 years to set things right and BOTH have failed, preferring to play games and act like children.

Indeed, it's hard to find any party I could give full support for. Although I think Ardern would like to change all that, she alone will not be enough. We need the majority of them to Grow The Fcuk Up - both sides - and get to work. And they simply will not do it while the People sit in forums like this arguing pot calls kettle black.

I read often that our health service is badly broken, however I struggle with this. As many here know I suffer from a long term chronic illness, last week a flare up started and by Friday morning it reached a level that I needed to act. I rang the clinic at our hospital and spoke at length to my nurse specialist. She said she will go and talk with my specialists and come back to me. Two hours later she rang me back with a list of things I can do, she also advised that the specialist has send an email to my GP giving him advice as to what should be done if the situation deteriorates. The nurse also advised that she will arrange an urgent appointment for me at the hospital.

That evening my GP rang to see how I am going and advised he has faxed a script to my pharmacy. This Monday I received a letter from the hospital with details of my appointment which is Monday next week. My GP rang me again this morning.

So, to me I feel our health service is doing OK, sure it's not perfect but on the limited resources available they do a good job and the staff are dedicated individuals.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#2006106 1-May-2018 16:06

MikeB4:

Brendan:

Rikkitic:

networkn:

Mistakes? You can sugar coat it, if you want to make yourself feel better, but I think we are beyond mistakes.

The evidence is pretty clear Labour can't properly govern and have lied (or are you disputing the fact they lied?). Open a newspaper, it's not hard to see.

Of course, it's all a matter of what someone wants to see. Confirmation Bias is a real thing.

I honestly think you are fixated on the things you disapprove of to the extent that you cannot even consider other viewpoints. This is no longer a debate of ideas. It is just shouting down of anyone who doesn't agree. That is why I withdrew from the Ardern thread. I'm just tired of it.

I have noticed the same thing, and I have been here longer than he.

I seldom participate anymore in these threads because I have concluded that far too many of the Right run true to their archetypal models - and as you say, you just get tired of it. Even when comprehensively refuted, they will typically then resort to tired old tactics like re-framing the debate, appeals to authority, etc, etc. I just don't have the energy.

As far as the health system goes, the answer is very simple: years of idiotic Neo-liberal ideology from across the entire political spectrum in NZ has resulted in broken services, greed, false economies and false efficiencies, and a whole slew of social ills. Neither National nor Labour are free from blame and while we could argue who has the majority of the blame, or who is responsible for this outrage or that debacle, the simple truth is BOTH HAVE BETRAYED NEW ZEALAND.

Honestly, both have had ample opportunity over the last 30 years to set things right and BOTH have failed, preferring to play games and act like children.

Indeed, it's hard to find any party I could give full support for. Although I think Ardern would like to change all that, she alone will not be enough. We need the majority of them to Grow The Fcuk Up - both sides - and get to work. And they simply will not do it while the People sit in forums like this arguing pot calls kettle black.

I read often that our health service is badly broken, however I struggle with this. As many here know I suffer from a long term chronic illness, last week a flare up started and by Friday morning it reached a level that I needed to act. I rang the clinic at our hospital and spoke at length to my nurse specialist. She said she will go and talk with my specialists and come back to me. Two hours later she rang me back with a list of things I can do, she also advised that the specialist has send an email to my GP giving him advice as to what should be done if the situation deteriorates. The nurse also advised that she will arrange an urgent appointment for me at the hospital.

That evening my GP rang to see how I am going and advised he has faxed a script to my pharmacy. This Monday I received a letter from the hospital with details of my appointment which is Monday next week. My GP rang me again this morning.

So, to me I feel our health service is doing OK, sure it's not perfect but on the limited resources available they do a good job and the staff are dedicated individuals.

I generally agree, but think the DHB's need a shakeup as they need to be reigned in. Also some services such as MRI's which are now an essential tool have extremely long waitlists which is very bad. Afterall MRI's are diagnostic only.

I am also unhappy at the way Pharmac operates. Even in Australia they have access to essential meds years before Kiwis.

networkn

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#2006119 1-May-2018 16:18

MikeB4:

I read often that our health service is badly broken, however I struggle with this. As many here know I suffer from a long term chronic illness, last week a flare up started and by Friday morning it reached a level that I needed to act. I rang the clinic at our hospital and spoke at length to my nurse specialist. She said she will go and talk with my specialists and come back to me. Two hours later she rang me back with a list of things I can do, she also advised that the specialist has send an email to my GP giving him advice as to what should be done if the situation deteriorates. The nurse also advised that she will arrange an urgent appointment for me at the hospital.

That evening my GP rang to see how I am going and advised he has faxed a script to my pharmacy. This Monday I received a letter from the hospital with details of my appointment which is Monday next week. My GP rang me again this morning.

So, to me I feel our health service is doing OK, sure it's not perfect but on the limited resources available they do a good job and the staff are dedicated individuals.

I also agree with this. I have had 2 fairly serious health concerns and a few of lesser but still serious issues including multiple late-night hospital admissions (drink lots of water I can't tell you how unimaginably painful kidney stones are).

I have never failed to be impressed with the care provided and after care follow up.

I even had my specialist from the last visit call me on her mobile after hours to check on me.

gzt

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#2006208 1-May-2018 19:35

It feels like next gen MRI has been around the corner for 10 years now:

https://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/news/20151015/low-cost-high-performance-mri-opens-new-opportunities-brain-imaging

Tldr; research article 2015, small magnets, low strength, high power analysis.

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Fred99

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#2006218 1-May-2018 19:49

networkn:

I feel ripped off for the way they promised to be honest and transparent.

LOL - what for? They betrayed your vote for them????

I do not think so. Get over it.

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#2006230 1-May-2018 20:03

Pumpedd:

I generally agree, but think the DHB's need a shakeup as they need to be reigned in. Also some services such as MRI's which are now an essential tool have extremely long waitlists which is very bad. Afterall MRI's are diagnostic only.

I am also unhappy at the way Pharmac operates. Even in Australia they have access to essential meds years before Kiwis.

I actually think DHBs should be abolished, especially as there's risk that with multiple term governments and fixed terms for DHB board members, there's "drift" toward overall toadyism - then politically motivated activism when governments change. It sucks.

Pharmac is fine. If there's a problem, then it's with the way we fund Pharmac from consolidated revenue, the aussies fund it from a separate levy. Apparently we're happy with the status quo - which means lower taxes in NZ, much lower than in Aus if things like the Medicare Levy was to be seen as a "tax" rather than a "levy".

The past Minister of Health got trained "for free" at your and my vast expense, decided he was a political beast more than a doctor, then quit as an election loser and buggered off to work in the private medical system for as much money as he could get - which is probably where his heart always was.

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#2006276 1-May-2018 21:11

Fred99:

Pumpedd:

I generally agree, but think the DHB's need a shakeup as they need to be reigned in. Also some services such as MRI's which are now an essential tool have extremely long waitlists which is very bad. Afterall MRI's are diagnostic only.

I am also unhappy at the way Pharmac operates. Even in Australia they have access to essential meds years before Kiwis.

I actually think DHBs should be abolished, especially as there's risk that with multiple term governments and fixed terms for DHB board members, there's "drift" toward overall toadyism - then politically motivated activism when governments change. It sucks.

Pharmac is fine. If there's a problem, then it's with the way we fund Pharmac from consolidated revenue, the aussies fund it from a separate levy. Apparently we're happy with the status quo - which means lower taxes in NZ, much lower than in Aus if things like the Medicare Levy was to be seen as a "tax" rather than a "levy".

The past Minister of Health got trained "for free" at your and my vast expense, decided he was a political beast more than a doctor, then quit as an election loser and buggered off to work in the private medical system for as much money as he could get - which is probably where his heart always was.

I think that DHBs should be abolished but for the reason that we just don't need the layer of management that they provide. We seem to forget that we're a little country with a population about the same as a decent sized city overseas... Sometimes, we get a little big for our boots...

Brendan

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#2006335 2-May-2018 00:44

networkn:

Brendan:

I have noticed the same thing, and I have been here longer than he.

I seldom participate anymore in these threads because I have concluded that far too many of the Right run true to their archetypal models - and as you say, you just get tired of it. Even when comprehensively refuted, they will typically then resort to tired old tactics like re-framing the debate, appeals to authority, etc, etc. I just don't have the energy.

To me, this is very passive aggressive and yet non-specific enough to be hard to challenge which I presume is the point.

You prove my point.

I have yet to see someone "comprehensively refute" much if any criticism levelled at this Labours term so far (In the JA Thread for example). I have seen it back the other way.

"righties" are not the only one who uses reframing a debate, and other tactics you don't like. I have seen a lot of justification of Labours behaviour presented as "well national did it too".

As I said, there is too much "pot called kettle black".

Brendan:

Indeed, it's hard to find any party I could give full support for. Although I think Ardern would like to change all that, she alone will not be enough. We need the majority of them to Grow The Fcuk Up - both sides - and get to work. And they simply will not do it while the People sit in forums like this arguing pot calls kettle black.

The first part of your argument about who is to blame was logical, but this is completely off the chart illogical. Why would any politician not be able to do his or her paid duty because of what you and I are debating on this forum?

This is a microcosm of where you go wrong Andre. You are adversarial and - typical with many "righties" in my experience - cannot conceive that other people may in fact work differently. I even wonder if you are aware of it yourself.

We are not in debate.

What you are finding confusing is that I am agreeing with you, but you do not understand what I am saying.

What JA wants to change, and what she is capable of changing, I think even you could admit are pretty far apart. She has shown very little leadership to this point. Offered opportunity to take strong positions on mistakes she and her party have made have been completely non existent. She talks a great talk.

David Clarke has chosen to spend the earliest part of his job and use it to make excuses for why not to fix it and how he wasn't aware and it's someone elses fault. Embarrassingly for him (I would hope) there is photographic evidence that refutes his claim.

If Labour TRULY want to fix it, they should just get on with fixing it. The time for talking was in the lead up to the last election.

What we have is a system a bit like an ice berg.

We have the tiny tip above water we all see - the Politicians. They fool themselves and us occasionally that they are driving this iceberg purposefully but are more like sqawking penguins than Captain Picard.

Then we have the bulk of the iceberg beneath the water. It is slow and bulky and dark with lots of holes in it. Labyrinthine. Full of little fiefdoms, provinces and management fair tales and all too comfortable with the status quo.

There will be no rapid change in course because of this. Any radical improvement will take a major culture shift in the public service.

How that will be achieved will be difficult, but it'll HAVE to happen. Our traditional presumptions are fast becoming untenable and the cracks are becoming chasms. The system will either catastrophically correct itself or we will design a better one. The status quo cannot last much longer.

One bright light has been the dawning realization that neo-liberalism is a bad idea.

I await the inevitable ridiculous presumptions and accusations.

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