New centrist green party?

To post in this sub-forum you must have made 100 posts or have Trust status or have completed our ID Verification

Forums › Politics › New centrist green party?

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | ... | 11

5896 posts

Uber Geek

#2172982 4-Feb-2019 18:40

The only way it will happen is if National decides they can take enough votes from the Greens to put them under the threshold without losing too many votes themselves. It's more likely if NZ First is marginal, otherwise they'd just be losing bargaining power when it comes to negotiations if they lose too many.

Separate to this, of course, is how well you trust National to make a calculated guess on the above.

tdgeek

29746 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2173029 4-Feb-2019 19:15

shk292:

Darude34:

I'm not disagreeing with you. I just think everybody should get the same when they turn 65. It does not matter if you have been a slave to some corporate company and paid taxes, or if you have been on work and income your whole life. We all have the right to retire equal. I fully support means testing, if somebody has their house paid for and $$$$ in kiwisaver why should they receive super too? The less money the babyboomers get the better, they don't need it. Personally I would like to see means testing taken as far as evaluating all your assets and property etc too.

So, you've directly contradicted yourself. Either you want everyone treated the same - as it is now with national super - or you want a socialist utopia of equal outcome which would require massive means testing and asset stripping of those who have done better than the lowest common denominators. As someone noted above, even Karl Marx, for all his discredited theories, didn't advocate equality of outcome.

I'd love to hear more about how you think your proposal above could be achieved, what its benefits would be and whether you have any idea of the unintended consequences.

For example "we all have the right to retire equal". So, if through hard work, good education and prudence, I find myself in a mortgage-free $1M house, does that mean you're going to build similar for everyone? And the same type of car? And you're going to replicate my overseas pension (which I earned) for everyone in NZ?

I hear Venezuela is nice this time of year if you're looking for somewhere closer to your ideals

If I had to live my life over again, I'd leave school, go on the dole and cruise for 50 years. Innovation, enterprise, and effort seem lost to that poster. Or everyone else except him is a baby boomer with 4 flats??

Discussion, debate, amongst adult, intelligent people, excludes extremists. Doesn't matter if anyone disagrees as long as its not extremist and stupid. he can maybe seek advice from a fellow extremist, Trump.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
18659 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2173030 4-Feb-2019 19:17

Stick to the topic please.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

tdgeek

29746 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2173036 4-Feb-2019 19:20

GV27:

The only way it will happen is if National decides they can take enough votes from the Greens to put them under the threshold without losing too many votes themselves. It's more likely if NZ First is marginal, otherwise they'd just be losing bargaining power when it comes to negotiations if they lose too many.

Separate to this, of course, is how well you trust National to make a calculated guess on the above.

Its a funny situation. National has a low level green or eco policy. Its bordering on zero. Labour has more, possibly or probably due to wanting Green support. So both are poor.

Both National and Labour need to take eco seriously. Its not a trendy issue now, its very serious. Whoever takes that on board and enacts serious eco polities that are real and not token, is in. Eco, green, call it what you like, this is the big issue, its not a Left vs Right issue

shk292

2853 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2173069 4-Feb-2019 20:21

Rikkitic:

Stick to the topic please.

Well, I commented on how I would envisage a blue-green party to look, with the result of deafening silence. So much for furthering the discussion

Aredwood

3885 posts

Uber Geek

#2173106 4-Feb-2019 21:37

tdgeek:
GV27:

The only way it will happen is if National decides they can take enough votes from the Greens to put them under the threshold without losing too many votes themselves. It's more likely if NZ First is marginal, otherwise they'd just be losing bargaining power when it comes to negotiations if they lose too many.

Separate to this, of course, is how well you trust National to make a calculated guess on the above.

Its a funny situation. National has a low level green or eco policy. Its bordering on zero. Labour has more, possibly or probably due to wanting Green support. So both are poor.

Both National and Labour need to take eco seriously. Its not a trendy issue now, its very serious. Whoever takes that on board and enacts serious eco polities that are real and not token, is in. Eco, green, call it what you like, this is the big issue, its not a Left vs Right issue

National introduced the RUC exemption for EVs.

The Otahuhu B and Southdown gas power stations closed down under the previous National government. 620MW of fossil fuel generation gone. The Te Mihi Geothermal power station was commissioned.

And the UFB network is here due to National. Which indirectly reduces carbon emissions. (and of course fast internet is always good).

Will post some more things later.

Aredwood

3885 posts

Uber Geek

#2173145 5-Feb-2019 02:32

The National party are still promoting their policy of the Kermadec ocean Sanctuary.

https://www.national.org.nz/supportkermadec

My understanding is that the fishing industry made large donations to NZF to get them to block the creation of that Sanctuary. Yet National and the Greens would easily have enough votes in Parliament to pass the necessary laws to create that sanctuary. And to block any attempts by NZF to repeal such laws.

Scenario - National table a bill in parliament to create that sanctuary. If the Greens vote against it, National would be able to accuse them of harming the environment. If the Greens vote in favour of it, Then they would risk splitting the coalition government. And they would open the floodgates to National tabling more bills that would pit the environment against coalition government policies.

An easy one that comes to mind - Scrapping Labour's free university fees policy, and redirecting that money into purchase subsidies for EVs.

Or how about a law that amends the Resource Management Act, removing almost all rights for consents to be declined. If that consent would result in more houses being built, more jobs being created, or more renewable power generation being built.

And of course there is Project Aqua. Opposed by the green party, including (then) co leader Jeanette Fitzsimons. Which if it had been built, it would have contributed 520MW of new hydro generation. In perspective, Huntly coal generation is currently rated at 500MW. After project aqua was scrapped - Coal power was lauded as the answer to NZs electricity generation problems.

http://tvnz.co.nz/content/419900/2591764/article.html

And more recently, Genesis Energy has recertified the Huntly unit 2 generator.

https://www.genesisenergy.co.nz/about/media/news/genesis-to-recertify-huntly-unit-2-for-cover-in-20

Although Genesis claim that they can't run all 3 coal generators at the same time, they said that the only thing stopping them is the availability of skilled staff. Supposedly the break even electricity price for Huntly coal is around 7c per KW/hr. Yet even right now (2am) there is 200MW of coal generation running right now, and wholesale prices are over 10c per unit. And we are nowhere near winter yet. It will soon get to the point that Genesis will employ / train the necessary staff, so they can run Huntly at 750MW output.

National would have a field day. As they would just have to point out to the increase in coal that is being used for electricity generation in NZ. And that when they were previously in power, Genesis were threatening to close down Huntly. As renewable generation was practically putting Huntly coal out of business. Project Aqua would have delivered power for 3.5c to 5c per KW/Hr range. Cheaper than coal and no carbon emissions.

So thanks to the Green party - Coal power is here to stay. And of course we all know there is another person who says that coal is the future - Donald Trump.

Samsung

Shop now on Samsung phones, tablets, TVs and more (affiliate link).

GV27

5896 posts

Uber Geek

#2173164 5-Feb-2019 07:26

Aredwood:

An easy one that comes to mind - Scrapping Labour's free university fees policy, and redirecting that money into purchase subsidies for EVs.

So we're going to replace middle class welfare in terms of subsidising graduates with upper middle class welfare for those who can afford the capital outlay on an EV? Not sure Tesla drivers need subsidies but OK.

tdgeek

29746 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2173176 5-Feb-2019 08:22

Aredwood:
tdgeek:

GV27:

The only way it will happen is if National decides they can take enough votes from the Greens to put them under the threshold without losing too many votes themselves. It's more likely if NZ First is marginal, otherwise they'd just be losing bargaining power when it comes to negotiations if they lose too many.

Separate to this, of course, is how well you trust National to make a calculated guess on the above.

Its a funny situation. National has a low level green or eco policy. Its bordering on zero. Labour has more, possibly or probably due to wanting Green support. So both are poor.

Both National and Labour need to take eco seriously. Its not a trendy issue now, its very serious. Whoever takes that on board and enacts serious eco polities that are real and not token, is in. Eco, green, call it what you like, this is the big issue, its not a Left vs Right issue

National introduced the RUC exemption for EVs.

The Otahuhu B and Southdown gas power stations closed down under the previous National government. 620MW of fossil fuel generation gone. The Te Mihi Geothermal power station was commissioned.

And the UFB network is here due to National. Which indirectly reduces carbon emissions. (and of course fast internet is always good).

Will post some more things later.

Hmm, seems more a defence on National (and thats fine) than a true green policy?

RUC on EV is small, and token, it wont rock the world

If two gas stations shut down, did they shut down as a green policy to reduce emissions or they were not needed?

UFB??? Thats a big stretch. Its like saying any road that any Govt built that reduced travel time was built to save emissions.

tdgeek

29746 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2173181 5-Feb-2019 08:30

Aredwood:

Or how about a law that amends the Resource Management Act, removing almost all rights for consents to be declined. If that consent would result in more houses being built, more jobs being created, or more renewable power generation being built.

And of course there is Project Aqua. Opposed by the green party, including (then) co leader Jeanette Fitzsimons. Which if it had been built, it would have contributed 520MW of new hydro generation. In perspective, Huntly coal generation is currently rated at 500MW. After project aqua was scrapped - Coal power was lauded as the answer to NZs electricity generation problems.

http://tvnz.co.nz/content/419900/2591764/article.html

And more recently, Genesis Energy has recertified the Huntly unit 2 generator.

https://www.genesisenergy.co.nz/about/media/news/genesis-to-recertify-huntly-unit-2-for-cover-in-20

Although Genesis claim that they can't run all 3 coal generators at the same time, they said that the only thing stopping them is the availability of skilled staff. Supposedly the break even electricity price for Huntly coal is around 7c per KW/hr. Yet even right now (2am) there is 200MW of coal generation running right now, and wholesale prices are over 10c per unit. And we are nowhere near winter yet. It will soon get to the point that Genesis will employ / train the necessary staff, so they can run Huntly at 750MW output.

National would have a field day. As they would just have to point out to the increase in coal that is being used for electricity generation in NZ. And that when they were previously in power, Genesis were threatening to close down Huntly. As renewable generation was practically putting Huntly coal out of business. Project Aqua would have delivered power for 3.5c to 5c per KW/Hr range. Cheaper than coal and no carbon emissions.

So thanks to the Green party - Coal power is here to stay. And of course we all know there is another person who says that coal is the future - Donald Trump.

RMA. National have been working on the RMA for years, and still are, in Opposition. Nothing has happened so far, and its not a green based issue

Coal. I agree that the Greens suck with coal. They want their cake (say, more Hydro) and eat it too (More Hydro but don't break any native plants, so no hydro).

We are not 100% renewable, so we use coal. Until we are 100% renewable coal is fine, as it has to be. While I blame Greens for no hydro, I also blame National, they havent acted on more hydro, less coal, when they could have done this without any support needed from the Greens

IMO National has a green policy as a token gesture. This includes a clean river policy, which only got as far as "some readings are being taken from the rivers" as quoted on a leaders debate last election. Greens, despite being a green, eco party aren't a lot of help as they want Utopia to magically happen

Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek

#2173189 5-Feb-2019 08:46

tdgeek:

We are not 100% renewable, so we use coal. Until we are 100% renewable coal is fine, as it has to be.

No it's not. Coal produces almost double the CO2 per unit of electricity generated as natural gas.

tdgeek

29746 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2173190 5-Feb-2019 08:49

Fred99:

tdgeek:

We are not 100% renewable, so we use coal. Until we are 100% renewable coal is fine, as it has to be.

No it's not. Coal produces almost double the CO2 per unit of electricity generated as natural gas.

Do we have enough gas to remove all coal generation?

Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek

#2173191 5-Feb-2019 08:56

tdgeek:

This includes a clean river policy, which only got as far as "some readings are being taken from the rivers" as quoted on a leaders debate last election. Greens, despite being a green, eco party aren't a lot of help as they want Utopia to magically happen

So while river water quality was apparently a major issue to many NZers (the majority of whom would be urban), lobbyists create the counter-argument that rural/agricultural water use is a minor issue, as "the worst polluted waterways" are in urban areas / cities. Is this classic "fake news"? IMO it is, only 1% of NZ waterways are in urban areas (where ~85% of the population live), it's a form of whataboutism - an irrelevant deflection from the real issue. Yet many of the public bought it.

Darude34

52 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#2173195 5-Feb-2019 09:07

tdgeek:

Fred99:

tdgeek:

We are not 100% renewable, so we use coal. Until we are 100% renewable coal is fine, as it has to be.

No it's not. Coal produces almost double the CO2 per unit of electricity generated as natural gas.

Do we have enough gas to remove all coal generation?

Maybe not gas, but more than enough could still be created using wind and hydro. Coal needs to be banned immediately. Huntly must be switched off.

Darude34

52 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#2173197 5-Feb-2019 09:09

Fred99:

tdgeek:

We are not 100% renewable, so we use coal. Until we are 100% renewable coal is fine, as it has to be.

No it's not. Coal produces almost double the CO2 per unit of electricity generated as natural gas.

Agreed, and why we even still need to debate this in 2019 is unbelievable. Government must shut it down.

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | ... | 11