Coronavirus Protests thread

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#2871075 18-Feb-2022 22:26

The idiots are really in charge of the asylum.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300521075/police-seemingly-cede-control-to-protesters-who-are-now-controlling-access-to-parliament-grounds-adding-vehicles

Where does it end? So far all this sorry event does is embolden a lot of the people who have been behind this protest. I'm not talking about the original organisers who I understand have left the room but the anarchists who wrested control of the event from the original organisers. It scares me where this could end up.

The police have been far to soft in their handling of the protest. There are so many things being allowed to happen which make a mockery of the laws of the land and the law abiding citizens of this country.

Also people should be allowed to leave but no one should be allowed to join.

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#2871080 18-Feb-2022 22:49

Unless the police do something soon the camp is going to become a permanent feature around the Parliament grounds.

The protest ceased to be about vax mandates several days ago. Symbolically it's become about who has control and once the police stopped arresting people that became the protesters.

Even if the government dropped mandates tomorrow IMO many of the current protesters would not leave. They would simply put forward other demands such as the sacking of various individuals they blame for the vax regime. They might even push for JA to resign. They see themselves as winning which they are..

Someone must be financing this protest and I doubt they have any interest in seeing the camp dismantled either. They are anti establishment and have dropped a great big turd at the heart of government and are enjoying every minute of it.

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#2871082 18-Feb-2022 23:03

Despite my defense of the police and the non-confrontational stance they have taken toward these protestors, I do question some specific elements of their operations.

I agree with others that saying they were going to tow cars and then not doing it, would be sending the wrong message to the protesters.

Even in a passive stance, you usually set some limits which are communicated. Saying something and then not doing it, without a clear and obvious reason, undermines your authority. Having said that, perhaps towing 500+ cars isn't feasible, but they probably should have determined that prior to saying they were going to tow them.

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#2871148 19-Feb-2022 07:30

GV27:

I think it's also worth remembering that the Nazis didn't sweep into power in one clean swoop - they ended up going down the political route after the Beer Hall Pustch failed. Even if the consequences of this don't bear out today, or tomorrow, or this year, the failure to intervene earlier could embolden the wrong people to cause significant unrest in the future. I feel just basically letting them take over the grounds of parliament is a symbolic failure that we may come to seriously regret and regard as a turning point, but I desperately hope I am wrong about that.

I woke up and wasn't entirely happy with this as an argument, given that we still have the far more recent MAGA movement to refere to which a) hasn't gone anywhere since Trump got yeeted, and b) is actually having a direct effect on the protests we are seeing today.

I feel that it's important people separate out the protection of the institutions in question here more than anything else. I'm concerned to see people suggesting the Government should be appeasing protestors who are threatening to harm the PM and put journalists for trial on treason because a failure to do something might make the PM looks bad and that suits their political conveniences.

I feel that's a really bad move. We should be universally agreeing after this that we cannot and will not accept an occupation of our parliament and government buildings, and people need to know that any attempt to do so will be treated as an attempted coup. I am 100% on board with people being able to march to protest and present petitions, but I feel an occupation with the aim of instilling fear into elected representatives should be treated for what it is.

As to how you deal with this situation we have in front of us, threatening to tow and then not towing cars probably isn't it. I feel for the frontline cops who are now dealing with the fall-out of operational decisions that are out of their hands, and the Wellingtonians who are now having businesses, campuses and homes affected by this. It should never have been allowed to get to this point.

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#2871219 19-Feb-2022 08:59

Sorry if this has already been posted but sign the petition to tell 'em to go home, 37.5K signatures so far.

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#2871221 19-Feb-2022 09:02

arcon:

Sorry if this has already been posted but sign the petition to tell 'em to go home, 37.5K signatures so far.

You go on about how they won't listen to reason because they are all deranged but then want people to sign a petition? Really?

If they won't listen to police, MP's or to the pretty obvious sentiment from the public, a bit of paper is going to turn it all around.

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#2871224 19-Feb-2022 09:17

networkn:

arcon:

Sorry if this has already been posted but sign the petition to tell 'em to go home, 37.5K signatures so far.

You go on about how they won't listen to reason because they are all deranged but then want people to sign a petition? Really?

If they won't listen to police, MP's or to the pretty obvious sentiment from the public, a bit of paper is going to turn it all around.

Its obviously not meant for the protestors ROFL.

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#2871226 19-Feb-2022 09:24

GV27:

GV27:

I think it's also worth remembering that the Nazis didn't sweep into power in one clean swoop - they ended up going down the political route after the Beer Hall Pustch failed. Even if the consequences of this don't bear out today, or tomorrow, or this year, the failure to intervene earlier could embolden the wrong people to cause significant unrest in the future. I feel just basically letting them take over the grounds of parliament is a symbolic failure that we may come to seriously regret and regard as a turning point, but I desperately hope I am wrong about that.

I woke up and wasn't entirely happy with this as an argument, given that we still have the far more recent MAGA movement to refere to which a) hasn't gone anywhere since Trump got yeeted, and b) is actually having a direct effect on the protests we are seeing today.

I feel that it's important people separate out the protection of the institutions in question here more than anything else. I'm concerned to see people suggesting the Government should be appeasing protestors who are threatening to harm the PM and put journalists for trial on treason because a failure to do something might make the PM looks bad and that suits their political conveniences.

I feel that's a really bad move. We should be universally agreeing after this that we cannot and will not accept an occupation of our parliament and government buildings, and people need to know that any attempt to do so will be treated as an attempted coup. I am 100% on board with people being able to march to protest and present petitions, but I feel an occupation with the aim of instilling fear into elected representatives should be treated for what it is.

As to how you deal with this situation we have in front of us, threatening to tow and then not towing cars probably isn't it. I feel for the frontline cops who are now dealing with the fall-out of operational decisions that are out of their hands, and the Wellingtonians who are now having businesses, campuses and homes affected by this. It should never have been allowed to get to this point.

I think you continue to overstate the likely outcome of all of this. It's possible you are correct of course, I really hope you aren't.

I don't agree with the weight you are putting on the threats against our democracy. We aren't America, our culture is very different. What happened in Jan 2021 in the US has been brewing for a very very long time. It's pretty much always been there, and it's part of the core of the American physche tied to their 'rights', and the rest of it. Whilst there is a very very small fringe of people here who subscribe to that, it's far from even remotely pervasive here. Having said that, there is growing discontent at how the Government has handled elements of this pandemic, which is pretty normal since many people have had their lives turned upside down for a long period of time. (Not saying it's entirely avoidable). As for the other groups who have attached themselves and how many of the original group are left, guessing isn't good enough (and leads to assumptions and incorrect conclusions), I'd like to know if anyone actually knows for sure what the makeup of the group is.

Every protest I can recall ever has people at it not tied to the protest, but who like to be involved in protests and will just attach themselves to any cause.

I agree it should have been curbed a bit (earlier), though I am not exactly sure how you could do that without escalation.

I have no issue with them turning up to protest at Parliament honestly. So long as they don't get violent and so long as we can find a way to open some pathways around the area for people to transit, /shrug.

I do not know why the police haven't towed the cars, when they said they would, it seems a bit strange, and the lack of communication on the reason causes people to draw (likely) wrong conclusions. I am wondering if they have been advised by legal counsel that they would likely face lots of legal challenges related to the towing, but are keeping mum on that so as not to alert the protesters. They may need to undergo formal notifications to prevent that (ala Ottawa).

I suspect the situation on the ground and in the area is different to what is being reported in the press. There are plenty of articles full of emotive language about threats and people 'trapped' in their apartments. Don't think for a second the press aren't out knocking on doors looking for people willing to say such things. The reality is, the world continues to turn.

I am also unsure how they could reasonably prevent more people coming if they have allowed people to come and go for the last few weeks. I don't think they would get away with the 'well 1000 people is our limit' type argument. I think it's worth noting that despite other countries in the world being more inclined to use force against protesters, protesters in other countries continue to pile up in numbers over time, so they aren't preventing new people coming either.

I thought the leaflets handed out in Ottawa yesterday were well written, calm and clearly laid put the parameters of where the lines were. I think the police here now need to follow suit.

Guessing entirely here but the protesters are here for a bit longer, people need to get their heads around it so it's not winding them up so much, and I believe this week the cars will mostly be cleared.

Don't forget, a protest isn't really that effective unless you can get attention and inconveniencing people is a good way to get attention. Threats and violence I do no in any shape way or form condone from the protesters.

For the record, I've never attended a protest, it's not my style, I don't generally support that method of objection and I think these people are muppets.

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#2871228 19-Feb-2022 09:33

arcon:

Its obviously not meant for the protestors ROFL.

It's equally pointless going to the police or PM.

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#2871229 19-Feb-2022 09:33

Maybe we could set up a protest about the protest! That will learn em.

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#2871231 19-Feb-2022 09:34

FWIW the Americans massively over-reach when it comes to using force but they do clearly articulate some ideas about civil liberties far better than we do, even if it is just paying lip service to them while they ride rough-shod over them. We don't really have those things front and centre so I'm not sure we place the same value on institutions like having a free press, etc. People seem to be pretty comfortable telling state broadcaster reporters that they'll be put on trial for treason and giving camera operators death threats. I don't think you see that often on the grounds of other democratic parliaments.

I don't have an issue with turning up to protest at parliament or presenting petitions, and I agree, that should be protected. But I do feel like occupations from people threatening harm to MPs and journalists of parliament grounds are a substantially different proposition and crossing a line that we might want to be more black and white about in the future.

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#2871232 19-Feb-2022 09:36

networkn:

arcon:

Sorry if this has already been posted but sign the petition to tell 'em to go home, 37.5K signatures so far.

You go on about how they won't listen to reason because they are all deranged but then want people to sign a petition? Really?

If they won't listen to police, MP's or to the pretty obvious sentiment from the public, a bit of paper is going to turn it all around.

Yes, it is just a bit of paper. However I think the thoughts/wishes of the significant majority of people who disagree with the way this protest has progressed needs to be made public in one way or another. I don't think many people had a problem with the original protest but it has gone way beyond that now.

These lunatics now running the protest live in their own sick bubble. Pretty well everyone they communicate with, talks and thinks the same, therefore from their perspective the whole world thinks like they do. They need to start seeing that they are really a small out of touch minority. There needs to be a concerted showing of public distaste for the anarchy we are now seeing.

A petition such as this is one way to show what the majority thinks. Also hopefully it will send a message to Jacinda and Co and the Police that the general population isn't happy about this.

We have seen wishy washy leadership on many parts of the Covid response which in my opinion has left a vacuum which these people have filled. We need some strong decisive leadership to get out of this but unfortunately I don't expect to see any such leadership from the current government.

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#2871233 19-Feb-2022 09:42

GV27:

FWIW the Americans massively over-reach when it comes to using force but they do clearly articulate some ideas about civil liberties far better than we do, even if it is just paying lip service to them while they ride rough-shod over them. We don't really have those things front and centre so I'm not sure we place the same value on institutions like having a free press, etc. People seem to be pretty comfortable telling state broadcaster reporters that they'll be put on trial for treason and giving camera operators death threats. I don't think you see that often on the grounds of other democratic parliaments.

I don't have an issue with turning up to protest at parliament or presenting petitions, and I agree, that should be protected. But I do feel like occupations from people threatening harm to MPs and journalists of parliament grounds are a substantially different proposition and crossing a line that we might want to be more black and white about in the future.

I agree we shouldn't threaten journalists, or MP's (or actually anyone).Given the police have prosecuted for threats of that nature in the past quite regularly and show no fear in doing so, I do wonder how credible or actionable the threats are if they haven't done anything (visible) in these instances.

I do think the press coverage of this matter has been almost entirely one-sided though, and that is a problem in our press in general. I have had a few interviews with press for various things I've witnessed over the years, they ask all sorts of leading questions, clearly looking for the story to be presented a particular way and on more than one occasion when I wouldn't get beyond the facts, they moved on to other people who were happy to cry or exaggerate the situation.

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#2871234 19-Feb-2022 09:43

GV27:

I don't have an issue with turning up to protest at parliament or presenting petitions, and I agree, that should be protected. But I do feel like occupations from people threatening harm to MPs and journalists of parliament grounds are a substantially different proposition and crossing a line that we might want to be more black and white about in the future.

This sums things up in a nutshell IMO. Anyone making such threats need to be dealt with promptly and severely. It's not tolerated elsewhere in our society there shouldn't be tolerated here either. Threatening to overthrow a legally elected government should be treated as treason.

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#2871250 19-Feb-2022 11:04

Perhaps the silver lining to this protest might be that the anti vaxxers who decry the effectiveness of the vaccines and the seriousness of a Covid infection will get the chance to find out what Covid is really like.

Covid will likely rip through that gathering of people like a dose of salts. Sure for many it may be "just a cold" but for others it will be quite a wake up call which hopefully gets the message across and at the same time causes the occupiers to move out.

I don't like wishing ill on anyone but sometimes just like a little child you have to let them get hurt to figure out for themselves that somethings in life will hurt them.

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