The politicisation of NZ's covid response

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#2892251 25-Mar-2022 22:23

freitasm:

The way I see it whoever listens to these people might even come to think their views and opinions are something mainstream. If no one had pointed out, what could be Luxon's idea of this person? What if he comes out thinking this person represents the view of all organisations in this line of business? What if he made some promises while chatting?

Their views on the industry they're involved in may be very much mainstream and very relevant for a someone like Christopher Luxon to hear. Those industry views are no less relevant just because that person supported the protests.

I have many friends and acquaintances. Just because we don't see eye to eye on some things that doesn't mean I don't respect their views on other subjects. I'm sure you will have similar experiences.

I think you have to give someone like Christopher Luxon some credit for being able sort the wheat from the chaff. He's been around long enough to know not to make assumptions or generalisation based on just one persons point of view.

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#2892325 26-Mar-2022 07:34

But if your friends were basing their views on misinformation (as was the case with most - if not all - of the protesters) wouldn't you try to do something about it? Maybe educate them that they're basing their beliefs on lies? Personally I know I would.

Differing views on what your favourite pizza topping is? (for example) sure, go for your life. But the antivaxx protesters were - for the most - part basing their views on misinformation they had been fed and just blindly believed. This guy Luxon met with falls under the same category - from memory he says he's not vaccinated nor did he request his staff to get it or wear masks. And at times they (no doubt) work in enclosed spaces, exactly the kind of place where coronavirus loves to spread. IMO, that's both irresponsible and reckless as an employer.

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#2892327 26-Mar-2022 07:47

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/128171463/antimandate-protests-led-by-destiny-church-pastor-derek-tait-to-continue-in-christchurch

Sigh.

“This is not over till we say it’s over.” - so glad he can determine for me when something's "over". So much for standing up for me and my "freedoms" 🙄

[Councillor] Lomax thought the group's new aim with the Bill of Rights was just an excuse to be disruptive. - couldn't agree more! The mandates are being removed, I think this guy is just looking for his next thing to get him some attention now.

I hope this joke of a protest doesn't go ahead, lead by this so-called "pastor".

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#2892331 26-Mar-2022 08:10

networkn:
quickymart:

(This could also fit into the National thread):

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/128155701/nationals-luxon-unwittingly-meets-antivaccine-mandate-protester

Come on. He was quite clearly at the protest (apparently his dance was quite famous), but Luxon or Bishop "didn't know"? Spare me.

Are we all allowed to make these types of unproven accusations and draw these types of conclusions about whatever party or politician we don't favour?

Obviously, it's pretty easy to avoid meeting anyone 'undesirable' when you stay hidden away from anyone you might disagree with.

There’s no FUG violation.

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#2892332 26-Mar-2022 08:13

quickymart:
Oh well, let's see if it makes any difference at the next opinion polls. It probably won't do much, but I can't imagine too many National voters being impressed by this.

It’ll have zero impact. In isolation it’s meaningless.

Technofreak

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#2892334 26-Mar-2022 08:18

quickymart:

But if your friends were basing their views on misinformation (as was the case with most - if not all - of the protesters) wouldn't you try to do something about it? Maybe educate them that they're basing their beliefs on lies? Personally I know I would.

Yes, I have tried to educate them. That's not the point in discussion here.

The vaccine and mandates were never the focus of the visit but some newspaper reporter has tried to link the two.

Trying to "educate" someone on an unrelated topic when you're meeting them about an entirely different matter isn't a productive way to progress the conversation.

P.S. You've obviously not had a conversation with anyone opposed to the Covid vaccine. There isn't a rational discussion to be had. It's not worth taking any conversations down the "education " path. You stay right away from any discussions about the vaccine if you're a smart person.

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#2892335 26-Mar-2022 08:23

Technofreak:
quickymart:

But if your friends were basing their views on misinformation (as was the case with most - if not all - of the protesters) wouldn't you try to do something about it? Maybe educate them that they're basing their beliefs on lies? Personally I know I would.

Yes, I would try to educate them. That's not the point in discussion here.

The vaccine and mandates were never the focus of the visit but some newspaper reporter has tried to link the two.

Trying to "educate" someone on an unrelated topic when you're meeting them about an entirely different matter isn't a productive way to progress the conversation.

Luxon and Bishops staff screwed up. It’s very unlikely they would have visited if they had known the owners role in the protests. That’s really about as far as it goes.

Blaming the media is pretty silly, they are raising reasonable, if embarrassing, questions.

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#2892345 26-Mar-2022 10:20

Technofreak:

quickymart:

But if your friends were basing their views on misinformation (as was the case with most - if not all - of the protesters) wouldn't you try to do something about it? Maybe educate them that they're basing their beliefs on lies? Personally I know I would.

P.S. You've obviously not had a conversation with anyone opposed to the Covid vaccine. There isn't a rational discussion to be had. It's not worth taking any conversations down the "education " path. You stay right away from any discussions about the vaccine if you're a smart person.

Unfortunately, I have. It's pointless; since everyone on the internet is a self-declared "expert" who knows far more about pandemics than any doctor ever could. their arguments go along the lines of: it's all a massive Government conspiracy, it's a coverup, there's crap in the vaccine that can allow the Government to track you, blah blah blah...oh trust me, I most certainly have. Several people I simply don't speak to because of it - it's far easier for me that way.

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#2892346 26-Mar-2022 10:31

networkn:
quickymart:Come on. He was quite clearly at the protest (apparently his dance was quite famous), but Luxon or Bishop "didn't know"? Spare me.
Are we all allowed to make these types of unproven accusations and draw these types of conclusions about whatever party or politician we don't favour?

I can point you to some recent examples in the other party topic if it helps. I think it's reasonable to ask the question. A person might ask for example who then were the 'good people' at the protest referred to by Luxon.

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#2892349 26-Mar-2022 10:51

Technofreak: Their views on the industry they're involved in may be very much mainstream and very relevant for a someone like Christopher Luxon to hear. Those industry views are no less relevant just because that person supported the protests.

Likewise on the same basis it does not bother me a lot. However, I do wonder how extreme this persons views on Covid might be and how much credence that is given by Luxon.

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#2892354 26-Mar-2022 11:30

Technofreak:

The vaccine and mandates were never the focus of the visit but some newspaper reporter has tried to link the two.

How could you objectively say this person's lobbying efforts are pro-industry or based on anti-vaxxer misinformation?

I would immediately discard anything from this person's lobbying efforts based on the anti-vaxxer sourcing.

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#2892385 26-Mar-2022 14:28

networkn:

I am also pretty sick of the way you characterize my criticism of the Government in general. If you continue in this manner, then it seems only fair that I do the same back. So I can start finding unflattering animal behaviours to equate your support of the Government and I can start using terms which are insulting to characterize an overly coloured view of the PM's leadership qualities, and her in general.

Just as a belated point of information to keep the record tidy, I honestly could not fathom what the 'animal behaviour' comment was in reference to. In the middle of last night I woke up and suddenly thought, 'the geese'. So yes, there was that. For some reason, my brain just completely blanked it out.

Apart from that, that particular comment especially was not directed at any individual. There seemed to be two or three or maybe four posters in this thread who were circling like sharks and sticking the knife in and that annoyed me and I remembered the geese and it seemed a fair analogy, though of course it was also somewhat tongue in cheek. Anyway, I have said whatever I wanted to say and am now bowing out, at least for awhile.

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Technofreak

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#2892403 26-Mar-2022 15:58

freitasm:

Technofreak:

The vaccine and mandates were never the focus of the visit but some newspaper reporter has tried to link the two.

How could you objectively say this person's lobbying efforts are pro-industry or based on anti-vaxxer misinformation?

I would immediately discard anything from this person's lobbying efforts based on the anti-vaxxer sourcing.

Without input from other sources there is no way you would ever know what bias if any there is to that persons lobbying or feedback. That goes for any time someone is lobbying on an issue.

I don't know about you but I don't just take the word of one person, I verify using other sources as well. If I get a bit of information that's not verified I put it to one side to see if it aligns with other information before taking it on board or discarding it. I'm sure the likes of Christopher Luxon does too.

Too dismiss someone's lobbying purely based on their position on an unrelated matter is, in my opinion, being close minded.

Everyone has the potential to make a worthwhile contribution. For that reason you should always give them the chance to be heard. You never know what you might learn, in the end you don't have to accept their point of view.

I like the saying, "The mind is like a parachute, it's no use unless it's open".

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#2892472 26-Mar-2022 17:44

Technofreak:

Everyone has the potential to make a worthwhile contribution. For that reason you should always give them the chance to be heard. You never know what you might learn, in the end you don't have to accept their point of view.

I (personally) don't believe that antivaxxers or people who support violent protests based on misinformation are making worthwhile contributions to society.

Technofreak

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#2892560 26-Mar-2022 21:54

quickymart:

Technofreak:

Everyone has the potential to make a worthwhile contribution. For that reason you should always give them the chance to be heard. You never know what you might learn, in the end you don't have to accept their point of view.

I (personally) don't believe that antivaxxers or people who support violent protests based on misinformation are making worthwhile contributions to society.

Seems to me you're joining dots that don't necessarily exist. We were discussing a news item about the visit of Messrs Luxon and Bishop to a business run by two people who supported the anti mandate protest. Nowhere was there any mention about them being anti vax or that they supported the idiots who perpetuated the violence.

While anti vax and anti mandate generally go hand in hand there is a good number of people who are vaccinated and anti mandate.

The significant majority of those who attended the protest did so in a non violent manner.

Your blanket statement says as much about you as it does about the people you wish to dismiss.

I know plenty of people who are anti vax and anti mandate who make a very worthwhile contribution to society. Do I agree with their anti vax/anti mandate stance? Hell no, but I still acknowledge the positive contributions they make.

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