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#2144080 12-Dec-2018 13:16

networkn:

MikeB4:

The Government is a stake holder and as such has a vested interest however the Governments role is the NZ people and our economy. The affect of a 3 day strike will impact all of New Zealand, our economy and our lucrative tourist industry and thousands on New Zealand families. The Governments role is to look after that and to intercede when the parties in a dispute that can have an impact like this cannot come to an agreement. The Government has powers in this regard. The Unions and business management should not be allowed to hold NZ to ransom. This is a strategic dispute design for maximum impact to gain maximum advantage. If the Government sits on its hands with this I believe we are going to see a whole lot more stategic strikes just like the 70s and 80s. This is not a time for JA to smile and be everyones friend it is time to act as the Government and act as the Prime Minister.

This is one of the first real tests of her abilities as PM. I will be watching this with interest, but anything less than diverting this would be a massive fail to my mind.

Do you feel she should intervene? If so, how far should she go?

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#2144081 12-Dec-2018 13:18

I see airlines as one of our essential services, yes she should be intervening

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

networkn

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#2144084 12-Dec-2018 13:27

tdgeek:

Do you feel she should intervene? If so, how far should she go?

I am unsure exactly what powers she holds, but if her powers allowed for it, I would expect her to prevent the strike on those dates, but allow them to occur at a less critical time (For the record I do not support striking at any time, but the law allows it, so here we are).

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#2144085 12-Dec-2018 13:28

networkn:

This is one of the first real tests of her abilities as PM. I will be watching this with interest, but anything less than diverting this would be a massive fail to my mind.

Honestly, I think almost anything she does would be a massive fail to you and some others here. What if she intervenes and the unions feel betrayed and the strikes spread and the whole country really does come to a screeching halt? Political leaders, if they really are leaders, have to look at the big picture and they often have to swallow dead rats and accept compromises they don't like. I don't know if she will rise to this occasion or not, probably not according to the standards of some here, but at least have the decency to wait and see what happens before pronouncing her failures.

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#2144087 12-Dec-2018 13:32

MikeB4:

I see airlines as one of our essential services, yes she should be intervening

The Govt is a 53% shareholder, shareholders have no power to run a company. They have voting rights which they can exercise at a, AGM, or an Extraordinary GM. Then they can win that vote, but they can't run the company. If she stepped in and resolved it great, a good look, happy travellers but its a slippery slope when a shareholder can take control and run the company, while the other shareholders go along for the ride and have their investment capital and income affected.

3 days air travel is not an essential service. It ranks far behind the general definition of an essential service. I get the sentiment, but a shareholder cannot take control of other peoples' business.

The strikes wont happen. Both parties have locked themselves in, both will be heavily negatively affected if it goes ahead, both lose. What you will see is both announcing we have suspended the strikes and will continue negotiations. We dont want the public affected at this time of year. because we, Air NZ and the Unions are wonderful....

I do expect JA will be having unofficial chats with Luxon, they already work together. Love to be a fly on that wall.

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#2144089 12-Dec-2018 13:35

Rikkitic:

networkn:

This is one of the first real tests of her abilities as PM. I will be watching this with interest, but anything less than diverting this would be a massive fail to my mind.

Honestly, I think almost anything she does would be a massive fail to you and some others here. What if she intervenes and the unions feel betrayed and the strikes spread and the whole country really does come to a screeching halt? Political leaders, if they really are leaders, have to look at the big picture and they often have to swallow dead rats and accept compromises they don't like. I don't know if she will rise to this occasion or not, probably not according to the standards of some here, but at least have the decency to wait and see what happens before pronouncing her failures.

JA has been given some good points by me here for what I feel she has done well or even ok with. Your contiual jackaling and accusations that I don't give them a fair go are over the top and have more to do with your own perconceptions than anything I am doing. She has had an easy run so far, very few challenges except the ones of her own parties making. At some point things will get hard and THIS is where you see if you get a diamond, or a crushed bit of coal.

I haven't pre considered her success here, I've stated what I feel needs to happen and that if she isn't capable of it (as long as the law allows for it), then she isn't the right person to be in that chair.

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#2144092 12-Dec-2018 13:36

She won't intervene; and here's why I don't think she should:

1) She has ongoing negotiations with other essential service providers. Instructing the unions to capitulate would be hugely inflammatory. I also can't recall a National Party leader strike-breaking in recent memory, so this doesn't seem like a fair expectation.

2) Instructing Air NZ to swallow a rat solely because they're making profit and can afford it will open the door up to the other unionized bits of their workforce taking an aggressive approach.It could paralyse them financially and operationally.

3) Getting personally involved will stoke an outcry from the nurses who struck and settled. They'd want to know why she didn't openly go into bat for them.

Now, do I expect her to lean on the union organisers through informal back-channels like I'd expect National to bring up potential travel disruption with executives over a round of golf? Of course I do. It's summer and there's going to be lots of BBQs on both sides this year.

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#2144093 12-Dec-2018 13:38

networkn:

tdgeek:

Do you feel she should intervene? If so, how far should she go?

I am unsure exactly what powers she holds, but if her powers allowed for it, I would expect her to prevent the strike on those dates, but allow them to occur at a less critical time (For the record I do not support striking at any time, but the law allows it, so here we are).

I agree, and maybe there is a law that can do something. But as per my post, its a very slippery slope. Pressure is another thing though. She knows and works with Luxon, she could flex her muscles with the Unions, Id like to see that. You have a job, fine, but not this way...[Call me, walks out and slams door]

I dont support strikes either, but I can see why they are law, there is quite a power difference between a company and an employee.

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#2144094 12-Dec-2018 13:42

GV27:

She won't intervene; and here's why I don't think she should:

1) She has ongoing negotiations with other essential service providers. Instructing the unions to capitulate would be hugely inflammatory. I also can't recall a National Party leader strike-breaking in recent memory, so this doesn't seem like a fair expectation.

2) Instructing Air NZ to swallow a rat solely because they're making profit and can afford it will open the door up to the other unionized bits of their workforce taking an aggressive approach.It could paralyse them financially and operationally.

3) Getting personally involved will stoke an outcry from the nurses who struck and settled. They'd want to know why she didn't openly go into bat for them.

Now, do I expect her to lean on the union organisers through informal back-channels like I'd expect National to bring up potential travel disruption with executives over a round of golf? Of course I do. It's summer and there's going to be lots of BBQs on both sides this year.

Good points. The Govt isn't involved, but it is, but it isn't, etc depending on how you look at it, legally, morally, etc. Tricky, but it will be resolved for Xmas

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#2144134 12-Dec-2018 13:52

What is disappointing is that the PM hasn't come out and condemned the decision of the Union to manipulate the situation to their advantage by threatning to disrupt services during such an important time for families and the ilk.

I feel she can at least do this without compromising her position.

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#2144137 12-Dec-2018 13:58

networkn:

JA has been given some good points by me here for what I feel she has done well or even ok with. Your contiual jackaling and accusations that I don't give them a fair go are over the top and have more to do with your own perconceptions than anything I am doing. She has had an easy run so far, very few challenges except the ones of her own parties making. At some point things will get hard and THIS is where you see if you get a diamond, or a crushed bit of coal.

I haven't pre considered her success here, I've stated what I feel needs to happen and that if she isn't capable of it (as long as the law allows for it), then she isn't the right person to be in that chair.

Like everyone here, you have an opinion. It isn't inscribed on tablets of stone. You think you know how things should transpire. If they go a different direction, you pronounce it a failure because it doesn't accord with your idea. Sometimes you are right, sometimes not. Someone, I think tdgeek, made an excellent point. He said that if a million houses don't get built, some still will, so that's a win. If a zillion trees don't get planted, some still do, and that is also a win. But you just go on about the ones that didn't and cry broken promises.

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#2144142 12-Dec-2018 14:02

networkn:

What is disappointing is that the PM hasn't come out and condemned the decision of the Union to manipulate the situation to their advantage by threatning to disrupt services during such an important time for families and the ilk.

I feel she can at least do this without compromising her position.

There are two parties involved. Equally. Both have the option to agree or not agree. The Unions has chosen those dates, Air NZ currently sees their record profits as more important than a few travellers. Air NZ are misleading the media with the salary numbers. There is no one naughty and unfortunate party here.

No, I'm not flying the Union flag, there has been a lot of bad behaviour from Air NZ floating around. She needs to condemn both. Im not aware that the Air NZ was reasonable. I know what they stated was misleading. She cannot condemn one of them, as they are both at fault. The employees have a case, thats pretty clear.

MikeB4

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#2144148 12-Dec-2018 14:14

tdgeek:

MikeB4:

I see airlines as one of our essential services, yes she should be intervening

The Govt is a 53% shareholder, shareholders have no power to run a company. They have voting rights which they can exercise at a, AGM, or an Extraordinary GM. Then they can win that vote, but they can't run the company. If she stepped in and resolved it great, a good look, happy travellers but its a slippery slope when a shareholder can take control and run the company, while the other shareholders go along for the ride and have their investment capital and income affected.

3 days air travel is not an essential service. It ranks far behind the general definition of an essential service. I get the sentiment, but a shareholder cannot take control of other peoples' business.

The strikes wont happen. Both parties have locked themselves in, both will be heavily negatively affected if it goes ahead, both lose. What you will see is both announcing we have suspended the strikes and will continue negotiations. We dont want the public affected at this time of year. because we, Air NZ and the Unions are wonderful....

I do expect JA will be having unofficial chats with Luxon, they already work together. Love to be a fly on that wall.

A majority share holder can apply pressure but a Governmet has legal recourse. Now I maybe wrong here so forgive me if I am but I believe that Air NZ is an essental service according to the Employment Relations Act and the Government can therefore seek an injunction in Court to stop the strike action. However I believe that maybe subject to the amount of notice the Union has given.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

tdgeek

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#2144151 12-Dec-2018 14:25

MikeB4:

tdgeek:

MikeB4:

I see airlines as one of our essential services, yes she should be intervening

The Govt is a 53% shareholder, shareholders have no power to run a company. They have voting rights which they can exercise at a, AGM, or an Extraordinary GM. Then they can win that vote, but they can't run the company. If she stepped in and resolved it great, a good look, happy travellers but its a slippery slope when a shareholder can take control and run the company, while the other shareholders go along for the ride and have their investment capital and income affected.

3 days air travel is not an essential service. It ranks far behind the general definition of an essential service. I get the sentiment, but a shareholder cannot take control of other peoples' business.

The strikes wont happen. Both parties have locked themselves in, both will be heavily negatively affected if it goes ahead, both lose. What you will see is both announcing we have suspended the strikes and will continue negotiations. We dont want the public affected at this time of year. because we, Air NZ and the Unions are wonderful....

I do expect JA will be having unofficial chats with Luxon, they already work together. Love to be a fly on that wall.

A majority share holder can apply pressure but a Governmet has legal recourse. Now I maybe wrong here so forgive me if I am but I believe that Air NZ is an essental service according to the Employment Relations Act and the Government can therefore seek an injunction in Court to stop the strike action. However I believe that maybe subject to the amount of notice the Union has given.

@networkn alluded to a legal recourse, and its a pity if the ERA clause now doesn't fit. Pressure for sure, she is close to both, they both need putting in their place. The union has no moral right to play it this way,. and Air NZ has no right to be stubborn given its failures so far with this issue and staff management, which is not just with this group of employees, they have a cost/staff disconnect.

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#2144155 12-Dec-2018 14:35

Rikkitic:

...Someone, I think tdgeek, made an excellent point. He said that if a million houses don't get built, some still will, so that's a win. If a zillion trees don't get planted, some still do, and that is also a win. But you just go on about the ones that didn't and cry broken promises.

You were talking about opinions. Here's mine - the above philosophy sets an incredibly low bar. It completely ignores the capital investment wasted on achieving the poor outcomes. It completely ignores the burning of political goodwill with the electorate when someone promises enormous outcomes and delivers a fraction of what was promised. And it completely ignores the opportunity cost that the nation wears - the absence of all the other initiatives that might have been funded with the squandered investment.

To continue with the example-based argument:

If you owned a vineyard, and you employed a manager and staff to harvest your grapes and produce your wine, but they messed up and 10,000 bottles of wine don't get made but a couple of cases still did... Is that a win?

If you owned a farm and you paid a crew to muster up your 5,000-strong flock herd for shearing, and you paid for 20 shearers to turn up, and you paid for a prominent amount of raw material to be sold at the wool auctions, but the muster crew only arrived with some of the sheep... Is that also a win?

I'm sure I could come up with endless more examples, but I hope the point has been sufficiently made.

Is it unreasonable to "just go on about the [failures] and cry broken promises" in these situations? IMHO, no it is not.

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