Our PM Jacinda Ardern (and the government)

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Networkn
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#2955165 16-Aug-2022 08:44

Ardern's definitive language at the beginning around this is going to bite her in the bum I suspect. It seems likely the issue is at least moderately serious, and not contained to a single isolated incident. There may have been improvements since the recommendations of the Francis report were implemented, but no chance it's gone from a horrific situation to perfect in 2 years. None. Her language has become less definitive as time has gone on. She probably should have been more vague at the start and more definitive as she had a good handle on the situation IMO.

Rikkitic

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#2955194 16-Aug-2022 09:47

RNZ keeps describing him as a 'rogue' MP. Is that correct? It hardly sounds like objective journalism to me.

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networkn

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#2955208 16-Aug-2022 10:02

Rikkitic:

RNZ keeps describing him as a 'rogue' MP. Is that correct? It hardly sounds like objective journalism to me.

Depends if he is telling the truth or not? I am sure from Labours perspective, they would rather he not have their potentially dirty laundry in the press and may consider his approach 'rogue'. The truth probably lies somewhere near the middle.

Having said that, if he is being truthful about the effort he went to try and resolve it internally, and it was met with the resistance he indicates, there are some issues that the party needs to sort out. I suspect this won't be a totally isolated incident. Having said that, I have some sympathy for the situation as it is probably a pretty tough place to work, and I can see robust discussions being perceived by someone unprepared for them, to be considered over the line.

Situations like this will occur from time to time, whenever you have big workplaces there will be issues, and this is likely one of the most fractious workplaces to be.

Being a politician isn't for everyone. To some degree it will attract a particular group of people. A person I worked with a long time ago, left his job to work with Act. He described it a year later as soul-destroying. He was a genuinely nice person who I had respect for, I felt he wanted the right things for the country, but he described going in with 10 policies he considered critical to his success and having to give away his vote on 9 of them to opposing views, to get his one thing done. Everyone has a list of 10 things, no-one will get them all. Even on the one thing, you will likely hit considerably resistance.

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#2955241 16-Aug-2022 10:41

networkn:

Depends if he is telling the truth or not? I am sure from Labours perspective, they would rather he not have their potentially dirty laundry in the press and may consider his approach 'rogue'. The truth probably lies somewhere near the middle.

Having said that, if he is being truthful about the effort he went to try and resolve it internally, and it was met with the resistance he indicates, there are some issues that the party needs to sort out. I suspect this won't be a totally isolated incident. Having said that, I have some sympathy for the situation as it is probably a pretty tough place to work, and I can see robust discussions being perceived by someone unprepared for them, to be considered over the line.

Situations like this will occur from time to time, whenever you have big workplaces there will be issues, and this is likely one of the most fractious workplaces to be.

Being a politician isn't for everyone. To some degree it will attract a particular group of people. A person I worked with a long time ago, left his job to work with Act. He described it a year later as soul-destroying. He was a genuinely nice person who I had respect for, I felt he wanted the right things for the country, but he described going in with 10 policies he considered critical to his success and having to give away his vote on 9 of them to opposing views, to get his one thing done. Everyone has a list of 10 things, no-one will get them all. Even on the one thing, you will likely hit considerably resistance.

'Rogue' is a value-laden term. Journalists are supposed to be neutral, at least when reporting the news. Of course they are not in the real world, but they used to at least attempt to maintain the pretense. The use of the term in a headline, especially when the caucus has not yet come to a conclusion about his behaviour, just struck me as a bit off for our quasi-official news organisation.

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networkn

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#2955266 16-Aug-2022 10:50

Rikkitic:

'Rogue' is a value-laden term. Journalists are supposed to be neutral, at least when reporting the news. Of course they are not in the real world, but they used to at least attempt to maintain the pretense. The use of the term in a headline, especially when the caucus has not yet come to a conclusion about his behaviour, just struck me as a bit off for our quasi-official news organisation.

Heh, I didn't hear you complaining about that last week ;)

I think it's a fair term to be honest (even if emotive), he has gone rogue if he is airing the laundry of his party in public, though at least on the face of it he has tried to resolve the issues he has had, and it seems there has been some mishandling on both sides.

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#2955306 16-Aug-2022 11:56

networkn:

Heh, I didn't hear you complaining about that last week ;)

No idea what you are referring to. Nor was I complaining, just commenting. Emotive word choices are bad journalism.

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#2955324 16-Aug-2022 12:57

Rikkitic:
RNZ keeps describing him as a 'rogue' MP. Is that correct? It hardly sounds like objective journalism to me.

I tend to agree with this. The judgement on a news report should be made by the reader not the journalist using leading language. Headlines starting with disgraced or rogue MP etc are a subjective value judgement by the writer. A Journalist's job is to state the news facts in an objective manner unless it is a personal opinion piece.

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GV27

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#2955342 16-Aug-2022 14:18

We'll soon have an answer on his future as a Labour MP anyway, but I feel like there's an underlying point that hasn't really been addressed, specifically the accusations of certain MPs and how a party can reconcile 'being kind' with kicking out someone who goes public because they feel like people aren't living into the values they espouse to the press.

networkn

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#2955343 16-Aug-2022 14:20

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nzs-child-immunisation-rates-hit-record-lows-with-health-experts-petrified-of-measles-and-other-deadly-epidemics/KFGAQTTUJBPJBAO3NHPBSS4GAE/

This is pretty damning and scary to boot.

Shane Reti Tweeted:

My WPQ shows more spent on coms than the Maori focused delivery component. The target was 300,000; 20,000 vaccines given; total cost was $26M. $4M of the vaccines expired 2 weeks ago and another $4M expire in the next 2 weeks. Admin cost per vaccine given is maybe the worst ever.

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#2955344 16-Aug-2022 14:25

GV27:

We'll soon have an answer on his future as a Labour MP anyway, but I feel like there's an underlying point that hasn't really been addressed, specifically the accusations of certain MPs and how a party can reconcile 'being kind' with kicking out someone who goes public because they feel like people aren't living into the values they espouse to the press.

Their refusal to investigate his claims strikes me as particularly odd. He repeatedly asked them to investigate him so he could clear his name. Why they wouldn't do that is strange too. I am very sure, like in all these situations, there is blame to go around, but surely you want to investigate these matters thoroughly and if mistakes were made, correct them and put process in place to avoid repeats?

GV27

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#2955347 16-Aug-2022 14:55

So does anyone want to keep treating Labour's comments as being an honest appraisal of the situation in good faith or are we good now?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/labour-party-held-secret-caucus-meeting-to-discuss-rogue-mp-gaurav-sharma/ZSFZKNAUPHMQFWOMHD4DVWFKUQ/

Labour MPs had a secret Zoom meeting last night without disgruntled MP Dr Gaurav Sharma to discuss his fate.

The NZ Herald understands MPs met at 8pm, but Sharma was not told of the meeting.

He found out about it after a message - including a photo of Kelvin Davis on the zoom call - was sent to him by mistake.

Rikkitic

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#2955353 16-Aug-2022 15:33

GV27:

So does anyone want to keep treating Labour's comments as being an honest appraisal of the situation in good faith or are we good now?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/labour-party-held-secret-caucus-meeting-to-discuss-rogue-mp-gaurav-sharma/ZSFZKNAUPHMQFWOMHD4DVWFKUQ/

Labour MPs had a secret Zoom meeting last night without disgruntled MP Dr Gaurav Sharma to discuss his fate.

The NZ Herald understands MPs met at 8pm, but Sharma was not told of the meeting.

He found out about it after a message - including a photo of Kelvin Davis on the zoom call - was sent to him by mistake.

If this is your only source, you might be jumping to conclusions. Sharma has made several claims that may well be true, but could also be the result of a persecution complex. If there was a zoom meeting, how many MPs participated, what was the purpose, what did they discuss? It might be nefarious, but could also just as well be innocent. Why don't we wait and see what emerges from the actual caucus meeting? In view of his claims, Sharma seems curiously indifferent to the meeting (he may attend if he can find the time, he may be too busy). I wonder about his state of mind. I would not dismiss what he says out of hand, but it would be helpful to have more evidence of it from other sources.

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GV27

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#2955356 16-Aug-2022 15:49

Rikkitic:

If this is your only source, you might be jumping to conclusions. Sharma has made several claims that may well be true, but could also be the result of a persecution complex. If there was a zoom meeting, how many MPs participated, what was the purpose, what did they discuss? It might be nefarious, but could also just as well be innocent. Why don't we wait and see what emerges from the actual caucus meeting? In view of his claims, Sharma seems curiously indifferent to the meeting (he may attend if he can find the time, he may be too busy). I wonder about his state of mind. I would not dismiss what he says out of hand, but it would be helpful to have more evidence of it from other sources.

Journalists have already confirmed that a Caucus meeting took place last night without Sharma.

As for the 'state of mind' comment, we see similar comments from the PM and other senior MPs, who then go and hold secret caucus meetings. This is gaslighting, pure and simple, and at some point you have to start questioning whether they are trustworthy, let alone sincere. No one seems to have any problems questioning Sharma's credibility, with what are likely to be airdropped talking points (that's just how political parties operate, it will be happening).

GV27

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#2955357 16-Aug-2022 15:52

Just to be clear on this one:

https://twitter.com/jo_moir/status/1559375521640849411

"It does not constitute a full caucus unless everyone is invited, so, of course, for natural justice, of course Gaurav Sharma would be a part of that meeting.'' - Jacinda Ardern 24 hours ago and approx. 5 hours before a secret meeting not including Sharma.

networkn

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#2955364 16-Aug-2022 16:03

This all just feels really odd. From both sides. It's not how I'd have handled it from Labour's side, but it's hard to get an accurate grasp on what has *actually* occurred.

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