Welcome to a new era of industrial action. Same as the last one.

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6FIEND

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#2044029 26-Jun-2018 12:22

Handle9:

6FIEND:

BTW @Handle9 - feel free to start your own thread about Public Service salaries if you so desire.

However - from the State Services Commission's Public Service Workforce Data Report

The HRC survey provides information on the base salaries of staff in the Public Service as at 30 June
each year. In 2017, the average annual salary was $75,416, an increase of 2.3% from the previous year.

Contrast with Statistics NZ's data source, showing a 2017 Average Weekly income of $1,118 (annual salary $58,136) across both sectors...

There's a $17,280 premium for the public service - 29.7% greater than the national average.

It's far from "junk data".

So to compare a teacher or a nurse's salary to that over a cleaner is a valid comparison? IMO that is nonsense.

That is a straw man argument, and I agree - a complete nonsense.

The report provides an "average" across the entire Public Sector - all 348,000 of them. (From the CEOs & Board Members of Crown Entities DHB's, etc. all the way down to the cleaners, call-centre workers and clerical workers that are employed by them.)

When you compare their average earnings against the average earnings in the private sector, they are undeniably higher, by a significant amount.

You might argue that is because the public sector is "top heavy" with middle & upper management compared to the private sector... but I'm not sure that will fit your narrative either?

None of which detracts from the fact that more people have announced strike action in the 9 months since Ms. Ardern promised that it wouldn't happen than in the entire 9 years prior.

Rikkitic

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#2044032 26-Jun-2018 12:26

Pumpedd:

Rikkitic:

I genuinely believe that most (nearly all) of the contributors to this thread simply cannot abide the thought of any government of the left. The rest just derives from that.

What a load of tripe. I genuinely believe you cannot abide by the thought of any government to the right.

Your point is lost on me as well.

Many posts on the Jacinda thread before I left seemed to be looking for things to criticise the government for before it even had the chance to do much. The attitude was not what is this government doing right or wrong, it was this is a left government so it must be doing something wrong. There is a strong contingent here who just cannot deal with the notion of a government that puts progressive policies ahead of more roads and cows.

(And to give credit where due, I note with approval the recent comments of Simon Bridges in regard to environmental protection.)

Because some people here seem to suffer from binary thinking, they also seem to assume that my dislike of the right means automatic approval of the left. For the record, I think the government has made some big mistakes that it shouldn't have and I have grave doubts about the qualities of some of the ministers. The problem for me is that I don't regard National as a credible alternative, though it may be improving. I believe a lot of the problems the government is not coping with very well are inherited because National swept them under the carpet. This is also the excuse Labour has been making and I wish they wouldn't, but there is some truth to it. National did not do the job it should have and people suffered as a result. Now the government has to try to clean up the mess, but they are not doing a very good job either. As far as the future welfare of this country goes, I doubt it will make much difference who leads the next government. I have never voted for either of the major parties and I doubt I will the next time. My votes are usually protest or strategic votes because no party reflects my beliefs very well. I have voted Greens in the hope they might at least help keep the other parties honest but I can't say I am a supporter. It is more a matter of making the best of a bad situation.

In any case, I continue to follow developments with interest. And I do not believe this government will destroy the country, any more than I believe that National will save it. Fortunately this is not the USA.

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Rikkitic

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#2044043 26-Jun-2018 12:42

6FIEND:

None of which detracts from the fact that more people have announced strike action in the 9 months since Ms. Ardern promised that it wouldn't happen than in the entire 9 years prior.

And what is the relevance of statements like this? Are you implying that only the left makes promises they don't keep? I have no doubt I could find dozens, probably hundreds, of broken pre-election promises on both sides if I took the trouble to look. It goes with the territory and raking them up doesn't prove anything. This is the real straw man argument.

Maybe the strikes now are a result of pressures generated by nine years of National rule?

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6FIEND

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#2044067 26-Jun-2018 12:57

Rikkitic:

6FIEND:

None of which detracts from the fact that more people have announced strike action in the 9 months since Ms. Ardern promised that it wouldn't happen than in the entire 9 years prior.

And what is the relevance of statements like this? Are you implying that only the left makes promises they don't keep? I have no doubt I could find dozens, probably hundreds, of broken pre-election promises on both sides if I took the trouble to look. It goes with the territory and raking them up doesn't prove anything. This is the real straw man argument.

You are 100% correct, that IS a real straw man argument, and absolutely NOT addressing the relevance of my statement.

For clarity - the point is that the Labour Party are hopelessly out of their depth. Ardern in particular. There is a complete lack of understanding (if not a wilful blindness) of the consequences of their policies and messaging.

EDIT to add: It's not about Right vs. Left politics - it's about Capable vs. Inept politicians.

Handle9

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#2044076 26-Jun-2018 13:11

6FIEND:

Handle9:

So to compare a teacher or a nurse's salary to that over a cleaner is a valid comparison? IMO that is nonsense.

That is a straw man argument, and I agree - a complete nonsense.

The report provides an "average" across the entire Public Sector - all 348,000 of them. (From the CEOs & Board Members of Crown Entities DHB's, etc. all the way down to the cleaners, call-centre workers and clerical workers that are employed by them.)

When you compare their average earnings against the average earnings in the private sector, they are undeniably higher, by a significant amount.

You might argue that is because the public sector is "top heavy" with middle & upper management compared to the private sector... but I'm not sure that will fit your narrative either?

None of which detracts from the fact that more people have announced strike action in the 9 months since Ms. Ardern promised that it wouldn't happen than in the entire 9 years prior.

Please don't put words in my mouth. IMO you aren't interested in making any effort in trying to understand the meaning of the statistics.

I'm out, once again a politics thread descends into an echo chamber. It's sad really.

6FIEND

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#2044096 26-Jun-2018 13:36

@Handle9 Perhaps before you go, could you point out to me how I put words into your mouth?

If it's the paragraph that I started with, "You might argue that..." then I will be happy to edit that to state "One might argue that..." because I was not intending to attribute that to you personally - it was a hypothetical analysis.

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#2044104 26-Jun-2018 13:44

6FIEND:

For clarity - the point is that the Labour Party are hopelessly out of their depth. Ardern in particular. There is a complete lack of understanding (if not a wilful blindness) of the consequences of their policies and messaging.

EDIT to add: It's not about Right vs. Left politics - it's about Capable vs. Inept politicians.

They may well be out of their depth. I'm just not convinced there is a better alternative. Maybe better to support them and work on improving them instead of pining for an alternate reality.

I'm glad it is not about Right vs Left. There are capable politicians on both sides of the political divide, as well as inept ones. What a shame we can't just bring the good ones together and form a government of compassionate common sense.

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Pumpedd

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#2044166 26-Jun-2018 15:28

Apparently 34,000 workers have agreed to strike subject to getting a large increase in salary from their employer.

It is a pity those on disability cannot go on strike as well.

6FIEND

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#2044641 27-Jun-2018 10:51

Rikkitic:

They may well be out of their depth. I'm just not convinced there is a better alternative. Maybe better to support them and work on improving them instead of pining for an alternate reality.

I'm not pining for an alternate reality. In fact, more than anything else that appears to be the mindset of the current Labour MPs. They're not interested in being helped, refuse to take advice (especially from their Ministries and Industry experts) and appear to be convinced that blindly following ideology and thinking happy thoughts it all that is required to lead a nation.

A few examples of this behaviour from the last 9 months:

Prime Minister Ardern banning any future offshore oil&gas exploration permits. No consultation. No analysis. No cabinet paper or meeting. In fact, Megan Woods (Energy Minister) received advice in February that the decision would have poor outcomes, but the Government went ahead with it anyway, for "political reasons".
Transport Minister Phil Twyford ignoring advice that light rail to the airport via Dominion road was an overly costly and difficult option, and that there were better alternatives.
Police Minister Stuart Nash admitting that he ignored advice from officials on the rollout of new police officers because it showed that pressing forward with his policy would have detrimental outcomes.
Finance Minister Grant Robertson essentially telling NZ businesses that the faltering economy was their fault because they weren't thinking happy thoughts
Health Minister David Clark contradicting his officials and then allegedly pressuring them into silence.

Now I know that you're not a big fan of being overloaded with screeds of facts & figures, but I feel that it is important to "show" rather than just "claim". I believe that the above examples demonstrate a clear pattern of arrogance, wilful ignorance, and a government that is unwilling to be helped or supported - even by those whom they employ to provide them with expert advice.

The inevitable outcome is an unending series of own-goals:

https://www.facebook.com/NZNATS/videos/2277362528945996/

Rikkitic

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#2044669 27-Jun-2018 11:30

6FIEND:

Now I know that you're not a big fan of being overloaded with screeds of facts & figures, but I feel that it is important to "show" rather than just "claim". I believe that the above examples demonstrate a clear pattern of arrogance, wilful ignorance, and a government that is unwilling to be helped or supported - even by those whom they employ to provide them with expert advice.

The inevitable outcome is an unending series of own-goals:

https://www.facebook.com/NZNATS/videos/2277362528945996/

Thank you for taking the trouble to post these links. It will take me awhile to go through them properly, which I feel is the least I can do. At first glance, there is certainly no question that Jacinda Ardern firmly planted her foot in her mouth with her 'no strikes' assertion. I guess she should have known better.

I'm not so sure about the light rail matter. That one seems open to interpretation. According to the Herald article, Twyford did investigate the Chinese solution and rejected it for a reason. I would need to look for more details on this. I'm sure it will not surprise you that I am a fan of rail and light rail. For some reason that seems go with the right/left divide.

I am no fan of this government, certainly not on the basis of performance up to now, but I do not believe that the previous three governments were all that great, either. I think National got its priorities wrong and a lot of the issues the current government is struggling with are a direct result of that. It is unfortunate that we only have the two choices (for all practical purposes) in this country. I still have hope that Labour will end up getting at least some things right. Maybe at least some priorities will get shifted in a more equitable direction.

I will go through the rest of this when I can get to it. I will need some time to give it the necessary attention. Thanks again.

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Aredwood

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#2045799 29-Jun-2018 00:18

Auckland Transport is anti heavy rail. As they removed a rail overbridge that used to be part of the heavy rail line that went to the Manukau harbour docks. This will make it far more expensive to extend a heavy rail line to the Airport. Yet it has almost certainly been done just to help fudge the numbers for making trams appear cheaper. And also funny how it is claimed to be a necessary part for the East West road link. Even though that link wasn't due to start construction. And has since been scrapped by Labour. It also means that freight going to / from the Manukau docks cannot be moved by rail anymore, and now has to be moved by trucks.

National bought forward the funding to get the Auckland Central Rail loop constructed. So National are definitely not anti rail.

And electric buses are only going to quickly get better. I have even seen a claim on the net, from a company developing electric buses. That their buses can be fully recharged with electricity, faster than a diesel bus can be fully refuelled with diesel. (can't find the link sorry) So the light rail reports have only looked at today's technology, and haven't considered how much electric car and bus tech has developed in just the last 10 years. And what is likely to become available in the future.

They could easily build a dedicated busway like the North Shore one as an example. It has surpassed all expectations of passenger numbers using it. And has become so popular that they had to start using double decker buses, and run them as little as 3 min apart. As people were complaining that the buses were full, and they were having trouble getting on. All with current generation diesel buses. And when suitable electric buses become available, all they have to do is just install some chargers.

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#2045923 29-Jun-2018 10:14

Aredwood:

Auckland Transport is anti heavy rail. As they removed a rail overbridge that used to be part of the heavy rail line that went to the Manukau harbour docks. This will make it far more expensive to extend a heavy rail line to the Airport. Yet it has almost certainly been done just to help fudge the numbers for making trams appear cheaper. And also funny how it is claimed to be a necessary part for the East West road link. Even though that link wasn't due to start construction. And has since been scrapped by Labour. It also means that freight going to / from the Manukau docks cannot be moved by rail anymore, and now has to be moved by trucks.

National bought forward the funding to get the Auckland Central Rail loop constructed. So National are definitely not anti rail.

And electric buses are only going to quickly get better. I have even seen a claim on the net, from a company developing electric buses. That their buses can be fully recharged with electricity, faster than a diesel bus can be fully refuelled with diesel. (can't find the link sorry) So the light rail reports have only looked at today's technology, and haven't considered how much electric car and bus tech has developed in just the last 10 years. And what is likely to become available in the future.

They could easily build a dedicated busway like the North Shore one as an example. It has surpassed all expectations of passenger numbers using it. And has become so popular that they had to start using double decker buses, and run them as little as 3 min apart. As people were complaining that the buses were full, and they were having trouble getting on. All with current generation diesel buses. And when suitable electric buses become available, all they have to do is just install some chargers.

If the electric buses had cartridge batteries, they could pull into a depot, swap a flat battery for a full one and get back on the road in minutes....leaving the flat batteries to be charged in depot.

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#2046745 1-Jul-2018 12:42

Wiggum:

Sadly there are people in the private sector who are worse off than many of these public servants. All of them are being ignored, where are their increases? None of them are striking.

So you support industrial strike action, ok.

tdgeek

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#2046747 1-Jul-2018 12:44

6FIEND:

As widely predicted, the sixth Labour government has spent little time dragging NZ back into a period of Union-driven industrial action.

While Teachers and MBIE staff are clearly signalling their intentions and threatening to strike, nurses have already issued a strike notice for July 5, with a second notice to follow for the 12th.

This article on Scoop sums up what lead to our Nurses walking off the job.

"While actively encouraging nurses to seek higher salaries, the Minister - who implied, while in Opposition, that nurses would be paid more under a Labour Government - refuses to give DHBs the resources to pay them more."

Only that article is from 2004. The Minister in question is Annette King rather than David Clark.

Unsurprisingly, the same tired old policies and ideology-driven politics are delivering exactly the same outcomes as they have done over and over again.

There are many derivations of this quote, but the original is attributed to George Santayana:

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Its fair to say that there may be a correllation between Labour and this strike action. Its also fair to say that if wages and conditions had been kept more or less in step over the last 10 years, this thread would not exist.

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