Our PM Jacinda Ardern (and the government)

To post in this sub-forum you must have made 100 posts or have Trust status or have completed our ID Verification

Forums › Politics › Our PM Jacinda Ardern (and the government)

1 | ... | 63 | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | 68 | 69 | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | ... | 118

5978 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4212

#2981887 12-Oct-2022 11:03

Rikkitic:

You make valid points which I don't disagree with, I just reject the argument that we shouldn't make an effort because it won't really make a difference.

I'm not saying it's an easy one to solve, because it realistically isn't and that isn't the fault of the government so I can't blame them for a choice they make in what is ultimately a no-win siutation.

As long we're realistic about a) What we're likely to acheive and b) what it's going to cost us, we can probably make the best of a bad situation, given that doing nothing isn't really an option either.

I struggle with getting either bit in plain language when it comes to climate change information, and it annoys me because I want to make an informed contribution. Like if we're talking $7 a lite for milk or petrol, then let's have a discussion with some figures. I can't put platitudes about 'only having one planet' into my household budget and get a meaningful cost at the bottom - Excel keeps crapping its pants unless I have actual numbers in there.

tdgeek

30048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9455

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2981893 12-Oct-2022 11:13

I guess we could charge polluters Emissions fees we can divert those funds to cleaning things up. Atmosphere, and OUR waterways/soil

Or if that's too painful, we can charge 5 million Kiwi's the fees and use those funds to relocate homes and repair annual storm/flood damage. Not sure that would go down well either

In any case its a moot point as National will repeal them anyway

sir1963

3428 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3756

Subscriber

#2981897 12-Oct-2022 11:21

tdgeek:

I guess we could charge polluters Emissions fees we can divert those funds to cleaning things up. Atmosphere, and OUR waterways/soil

Or if that's too painful, we can charge 5 million Kiwi's the fees and use those funds to relocate homes and repair annual storm/flood damage. Not sure that would go down well either

In any case its a moot point as National will repeal them anyway

Yep, everyone puts off the hard decisions because when it actually bites they will not be held accountable.

Thats cowardice.

Doing nothing is tantamount to a suicide pact, its not like NZ will be untouched.

Patting puppies is not solving anything.

We should also be eradicating cats.

Thats the problem with a democracy, it can too often stop what is needed from happening. Then EVERYONE suffers.

GV27

5978 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4212

#2981899 12-Oct-2022 11:25

The problem is that's not the trade-off we actually get to make. Our weather patterns are a fait accompli, and unless we have specific buy-in from the big emitters then there's not a lot we can do to change that.

People need to be honest about this. We could shoot every single cow and it wouldn't change the effects of climate change that we're going to get. Framing it as a 'we either change or suffer the consequences' at a national level is sort of dishonest.

Technofreak

6657 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3477

Trusted

#2981903 12-Oct-2022 11:28

Rikkitic:

GV27:

They also require employees who are fed and don't suffer from insecurity around things like the basics of life, like food. Remember, competitive organisations compete for talent. NZ is a hard sell if the housing is going to be expensive, the food is going to be expensive and the quality of life on offer is lower too. 'The Greater Good' as a moral exercise to justify crappy policy only works if the 'good' actually exists.

Taking the knife to rural economic centres doesn't just impact the polluters, it will impact on the good ones who are doing their best to play their part.

Stuff doesn't just appear on the supermarket shelves by magic, nor do people have an infinite budget to mop up food that costs more and more.

Talk about the environment is cheap, but putting a price talk on what the kind of drastic action people who talk in platitudes want to see happen is a lot harder.

You make valid points which I don't disagree with, I just reject the argument that we shouldn't make an effort because it won't really make a difference.

I never suggested we do nothing. I agree we should make an effort because collectively it does make a difference.

When we're making what is in effect a token contribution and other countries which will make a significant impact are not doing the same as us then we are shooting ourselves in the foot. We're effectively achieving nothing or possibly worse than nothing due to the fact we as a country will be poorer and not be able to afford to take up better technology which will reduce our carbon emissions in other areas.

As I've already mentioned with the coal importation a lot of this climate change stuff is virtue signalling. Countries are saying they have reduced their carbon emissions when in reality they have just shifted them to another country and in many cases to somewhere where the carbon emissions are worse than the original country.

Sony Xperia XA2 running Sailfish OS. https://sailfishos.org The true independent open source mobile OS
Samsung Galaxy Tab S6
Dell Inspiron 14z i5

sir1963

3428 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3756

Subscriber

#2981912 12-Oct-2022 11:53

Technofreak:

I never suggested we do nothing. I agree we should make an effort because collectively it does make a difference.

When we're making what is in effect a token contribution and other countries which will make a significant impact are not doing the same as us then we are shooting ourselves in the foot. We're effectively achieving nothing or possibly worse than nothing due to the fact we as a country will be poorer and not be able to afford to take up better technology which will reduce our carbon emissions in other areas.

As I've already mentioned with the coal importation a lot of this climate change stuff is virtue signalling. Countries are saying they have reduced their carbon emissions when in reality they have just shifted them to another country and in many cases to somewhere where the carbon emissions are worse than the original country.

But waiting for others to do something before us is the same as doing nothing, its just pinning the blame on someone else whom we have zero control over.

EVERYTHING NZ does is "token", thats because we are a small country.

Coal importation is only one part, it was also exporting.

And we are putting in more renewable energy sources too..... but should we not bother because they too are so small its only a then gesture ?

Farming is NOT sacrosanct , it too MUST play and pay its part.

Samsung

Shop now on Samsung phones, tablets, TVs and more (affiliate link).

sir1963

3428 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3756

Subscriber

#2981923 12-Oct-2022 12:18

GV27:

The problem is that's not the trade-off we actually get to make. Our weather patterns are a fait accompli, and unless we have specific buy-in from the big emitters then there's not a lot we can do to change that.

People need to be honest about this. We could shoot every single cow and it wouldn't change the effects of climate change that we're going to get. Framing it as a 'we either change or suffer the consequences' at a national level is sort of dishonest.

And in the meantime, everyone else is saying the same thing...we wont until "they" do, who ever "they" are.

Lets be honest, I will be dead of old age by the time this becomes a real mess. And yet I will try.

But this is also worth a look

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL3AZGw9xZM

tdgeek

30048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9455

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2981928 12-Oct-2022 12:30

sir1963:

Lets be honest, I will be dead of old age by the time this becomes a real mess. And yet I will try.

I think this is the issue, human nature. If our house roof collapses we will happily spend big $ fixing it. But if it needs replacing, causing some issues we wont, we would rather kick the can and let the next guy deal with the massive damage to the whole home

Then, I guess when houses flood at the beach or rivers, we will want the Government of the day to pay for it. Oh please buy my unsaleable beach house that I could have sold in 2022, thanks.

GV27

5978 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4212

#2981937 12-Oct-2022 12:47

Replacing a roof has a clear identifiable cost and a clearly understood benefit. The main reason we have such a debate over this is because neither one of those things are actually that clear when it comes to dragging agriculture into an emissions scheme ahead of the rest of the world.

To quote Ned Flanders, my family and I can't live in good intentions. There seems to be urgency around every part of this debate apart from the bit where someone tells us what it's going to add to our cost of living in simple per-week terms.

Until we understand that, I don't think anyone can make an informed choice about what we're actually agreeing to, no matter what side they're on.

sir1963

3428 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3756

Subscriber

#2981939 12-Oct-2022 12:55

GV27:

Replacing a roof has a clear identifiable cost and a clearly understood benefit. The main reason we have such a debate over this is because neither one of those things are actually that clear when it comes to dragging agriculture into an emissions scheme ahead of the rest of the world.

To quote Ned Flanders, my family and I can't live in good intentions. There seems to be urgency around every part of this debate apart from the bit where someone tells us what it's going to add to our cost of living in simple per-week terms.

Until we understand that, I don't think anyone can make an informed choice about what we're actually agreeing to, no matter what side they're on.

Why does that sound like the same kind of argument anti-vaxers were making ?

Global warming is real

Doing nothing solves nothing

Someone has to be first

There is nothing sacrosanct about farming that it should be exempt

Global warming will make farming harder long term, so one way or the other, consequences are coming their way and at that stage we may not care about them.

Doing something IS THE INFORMED CHOICE. Its just looks like it is not the choice you like.

Hand waving, deflection, finger pointing, and lets wait are all useless strategies.

tdgeek

30048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9455

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2981940 12-Oct-2022 12:55

GV27:

Replacing a roof has a clear identifiable cost and a clearly understood benefit.

If it has collapsed yes. If its cruddy and causes the odd issues, spending 40k will be kicked to the curb. Yes in reality you and I would stump up the 40k today even though its not falling apart today, "clearly understood benefit" Spend money today give me a result today.

Climate Change doesn't work that way, but the issues down the track will be very very real, and that wont be due to a flooded garage, it will be a global phenomenon.

Apple TV

Stream your favourite shows now on Apple TV (affiliate link).

GV27

5978 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4212

#2981945 12-Oct-2022 13:15

sir1963:

Doing something IS THE INFORMED CHOICE. Its just looks like it is not the choice you like.

Platitudes may make for good Greenpeace begging postcards but they're not valid responses to basic questions about cost and benefit.

Talk, however, is cheap.

tdgeek

30048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9455

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2981947 12-Oct-2022 13:22

GV27:

Platitudes may make for good Greenpeace begging postcards but they're not valid responses to basic questions about cost and benefit.

Talk, however, is cheap.

What do you feel the benefit is?

sir1963

3428 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3756

Subscriber

#2981948 12-Oct-2022 13:27

GV27:

sir1963:

Doing something IS THE INFORMED CHOICE. Its just looks like it is not the choice you like.

Platitudes may make for good Greenpeace begging postcards but they're not valid responses to basic questions about cost and benefit.

Talk, however, is cheap.

We see the obvious impacts of global warming, we know they are going to get worse.

We see insurance premiums rising due to increased extreme weather.

We see the huge loss in the diversity of life on the planet.

The costs are obvious for people who actually look, so are the benefits.

And so now those costs are going to be put onto everyone, tough, it was always going to happen.

GV27

5978 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4212

#2981955 12-Oct-2022 13:44

sir1963:

The costs are obvious for people who actually look, so are the benefits.

If the cost in $ terms for Kiwis is so obvious then tell me what it is.

1 | ... | 63 | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | 68 | 69 | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | ... | 118