Our PM Jacinda Ardern (and the government)

To post in this sub-forum you must have made 100 posts or have Trust status or have completed our ID Verification

Forums › Politics › Our PM Jacinda Ardern (and the government)

1 | ... | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | 68 | 69 | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | 74 | ... | 118

3428 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3756

Subscriber

#2981964 12-Oct-2022 14:11

GV27:

sir1963:

The costs are obvious for people who actually look, so are the benefits.

If the cost in $ terms for Kiwis is so obvious then tell me what it is.

For any individual, no idea, but over all its going to be billions long term

The Christchurch earthquake cost over $40 Billion.

Covid cost us $33 Billion (or over NZ$6,500 for ever man woman and child in NZ)

So loss of economic activity due to global warming, loss of habitation, loss of productive land, etc etc will all have similar impacts on NZs GDP.

The UN Environment Programme estimated in 2016 that the global cost of adapting to these climate impacts is expected to grow to $140-300 billion per year by 2030 and $280-500 billion per year by 2050

Loss of income in other countries will result in loss of exports for NZ.

And if we have colony collapse of bees here in NZ due to global warming then its going to be a damn sight worse and there will be a LOT of hungry people.

A stitch in time is what is needed.

GV27

5979 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4212

#2981974 12-Oct-2022 14:33

sir1963:

For any individual, no idea, but over all its going to be billions long term

The Christchurch earthquake cost over $40 Billion.

Covid cost us $33 Billion (or over NZ$6,500 for ever man woman and child in NZ)

So loss of economic activity due to global warming, loss of habitation, loss of productive land, etc etc will all have similar impacts on NZs GDP.

The UN Environment Programme estimated in 2016 that the global cost of adapting to these climate impacts is expected to grow to $140-300 billion per year by 2030 and $280-500 billion per year by 2050

Loss of income in other countries will result in loss of exports for NZ.

And if we have colony collapse of bees here in NZ due to global warming then its going to be a damn sight worse and there will be a LOT of hungry people.

A stitch in time is what is needed.

That's the issue though, isn't it? There may be abstract and distant costs that effectively become part of some vauge 'greater good' number of acting now, but that's not how households pay the bills.

When I get to the supermarket and ring up $30 more than I have in my cheque account has available at the till, my first thought isn't how rich in spirit I am thanks to my wonderful partner and the love of my children.

The future is debatable and not quite written yet, but the costs we have to bear at any given time are very real. And the cageyness and reversion to platitudes makes it hard to judge whether we're spending money wisely or should be putting it towards some other form of mitigation or approaching it in a different way.

sir1963

3428 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3756

Subscriber

#2981977 12-Oct-2022 14:46

GV27:

sir1963:

For any individual, no idea, but over all its going to be billions long term

The Christchurch earthquake cost over $40 Billion.

Covid cost us $33 Billion (or over NZ$6,500 for ever man woman and child in NZ)

So loss of economic activity due to global warming, loss of habitation, loss of productive land, etc etc will all have similar impacts on NZs GDP.

The UN Environment Programme estimated in 2016 that the global cost of adapting to these climate impacts is expected to grow to $140-300 billion per year by 2030 and $280-500 billion per year by 2050

Loss of income in other countries will result in loss of exports for NZ.

And if we have colony collapse of bees here in NZ due to global warming then its going to be a damn sight worse and there will be a LOT of hungry people.

A stitch in time is what is needed.

That's the issue though, isn't it? There may be abstract and distant costs that effectively become part of some vauge 'greater good' number of acting now, but that's not how households pay the bills.

When I get to the supermarket and ring up $30 more than I have in my cheque account has available at the till, my first thought isn't how rich in spirit I am thanks to my wonderful partner and the love of my children.

The future is debatable and not quite written yet, but the costs we have to bear at any given time are very real. And the cageyness and reversion to platitudes makes it hard to judge whether we're spending money wisely or should be putting it towards some other form of mitigation or approaching it in a different way.

Do you have insurances ?

I do, I have had them for 40 years.

My house has never burnt down, nor been flooded. My car has not been stolen, nor have I been an at fault driver.

My life insurance is yet to be claimed on.

And yet I have paid many tens of thousands in premiums

The future is NOT debatable , global warming is happening and it will have impacts on everyone.

And I really do not see you living with the consequences of doing nothing, your hand will be out as fast as anyone else's, even though you chose to dim nothing to help beforehand.

And the costs will be like the temperature , they will slowly climb, there will not exact point where anyone will be able to say "THAT" was the start, because it has already started.

Worse, your kids will pay, and pay heavily. That too is also a given.

as I say, your excuses are basically the same as anti-vaxers, denial.

marmel

1924 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 226

ID Verified

Trusted

#2981978 12-Oct-2022 14:51

I think the concept of emissions mitigation is sound and farmers pretty much all agree on this, 99% of farmers are pretty good and want to do better for the environment. The issue is how you go about it with PROPER consultation.

Regardless of the Labour PR machine there wasn't any genuine consultation with farmers to come up with the He Waka Eke Noa plan. Dairy NZ and NZ Beef & Lamb who allegedly represented farmers views have become nothing more than marketing organizations and most genuine farmers are fairly pissed off with just how cosy they are with the current government. Farmers also get no say in levies paid to those two organisations as they are collected at the processing level so even if you wanted to withdraw your support you can't, other than voting out the boards at the AGM's.

This is just turning into a big mess for Labour, much like 3Waters which is now looking very unlikely to proceed in its current format.

I live in a small farming town, I see day to day the businesses that rely on the agriculture industry and to forge ahead with the current proposal is not only going to affect farmers but a huge number of supporting businesses as well.

Expect major protests around NZ, much larger than the earlier Groundswell events, and leading into an election year this is the last thing Labour will want.

GV27

5979 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4212

#2981979 12-Oct-2022 14:52

sir1963:

Worse, your kids will pay, and pay heavily. That too is also a given.

as I say, your excuses are basically the same as anti-vaxers, denial.

Your argument is that my kids may well pay heavily so who cares if they starve to death in the here and now. That's not exactly the deal of the century. You can't hand-wave away simple concepts like cost vs. benefit because all you have to respond with is pathos.

Asking a simple "what is this going to cost me" is not 'climate denial', and all it does is prove that you're just as uninformed about the choice we're being asked to make as I am. I'm just not relying on slogans to bluff my way through it.

E: Your point about insurance is most relevant. I knew what my monthly premiums were going to be before I agreed to them, so I could make an informed decision about whether I was getting value for money.

sir1963

3428 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3756

Subscriber

#2981980 12-Oct-2022 15:07

marmel:

I think the concept of emissions mitigation is sound and farmers pretty much all agree on this, 99% of farmers are pretty good and want to do better for the environment. The issue is how you go about it with PROPER consultation.

Regardless of the Labour PR machine there wasn't any genuine consultation with farmers to come up with the He Waka Eke Noa plan. Dairy NZ and NZ Beef & Lamb who allegedly represented farmers views have become nothing more than marketing organizations and most genuine farmers are fairly pissed off with just how cosy they are with the current government. Farmers also get no say in levies paid to those two organisations as they are collected at the processing level so even if you wanted to withdraw your support you can't, other than voting out the boards at the AGM's.

This is just turning into a big mess for Labour, much like 3Waters which is now looking very unlikely to proceed in its current format.

I live in a small farming town, I see day to day the businesses that rely on the agriculture industry and to forge ahead with the current proposal is not only going to affect farmers but a huge number of supporting businesses as well.

Expect major protests around NZ, much larger than the earlier Groundswell events, and leading into an election year this is the last thing Labour will want.

Farming accounts for about 50% of the entire countries emissions.

I had a friend who owned his own Radio/TV servicing business, try and find one now.

Try and find a buggy whip maker, someone who uses Clydesdales for farm work commercially.

Wheel wrights , etc etc etc all trades that have effectively gone due to progress.

"Mitigation" is being used as a new way of saying "Sometime in the future when it will not cost us"

Farmers are NOT exempt from responsibility for their pollution, and its time they started paying their share.

No one has said farming must, or will be sacrosanct.

We could drop farming by 90% and still feed NZ, we will simply need alternatives for exports.

Apple computer for example has a quarterly profit bigger than NZs entire GDP.

Time changes.

Apple TV

Stream your favourite shows now on Apple TV (affiliate link).

sir1963

3428 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3756

Subscriber

#2981982 12-Oct-2022 15:12

GV27:

sir1963:

Worse, your kids will pay, and pay heavily. That too is also a given.

as I say, your excuses are basically the same as anti-vaxers, denial.

Your argument is that my kids may well pay heavily so who cares if they starve to death in the here and now. That's not exactly the deal of the century. You can't hand-wave away simple concepts like cost vs. benefit because all you have to respond with is pathos.

Asking a simple "what is this going to cost me" is not 'climate denial', and all it does is prove that you're just as uninformed about the choice we're being asked to make as I am. I'm just not relying on slogans to bluff my way through it.

E: Your point about insurance is most relevant. I knew what my monthly premiums were going to be before I agreed to them, so I could make an informed decision about whether I was getting value for money.

My premiums keep rising. So what I agreed to 40 years ago is not even close to what I pay.

My premiums also include the costs of claims because of global warming, world wide.

There are those that run the risk with insurance, then cry publicly when it bites them in the bum....

marmel

1924 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 226

ID Verified

Trusted

#2981985 12-Oct-2022 15:17

sir1963:

marmel:

I think the concept of emissions mitigation is sound and farmers pretty much all agree on this, 99% of farmers are pretty good and want to do better for the environment. The issue is how you go about it with PROPER consultation.

Regardless of the Labour PR machine there wasn't any genuine consultation with farmers to come up with the He Waka Eke Noa plan. Dairy NZ and NZ Beef & Lamb who allegedly represented farmers views have become nothing more than marketing organizations and most genuine farmers are fairly pissed off with just how cosy they are with the current government. Farmers also get no say in levies paid to those two organisations as they are collected at the processing level so even if you wanted to withdraw your support you can't, other than voting out the boards at the AGM's.

This is just turning into a big mess for Labour, much like 3Waters which is now looking very unlikely to proceed in its current format.

I live in a small farming town, I see day to day the businesses that rely on the agriculture industry and to forge ahead with the current proposal is not only going to affect farmers but a huge number of supporting businesses as well.

Expect major protests around NZ, much larger than the earlier Groundswell events, and leading into an election year this is the last thing Labour will want.

Farming accounts for about 50% of the entire countries emissions.

I had a friend who owned his own Radio/TV servicing business, try and find one now.

Try and find a buggy whip maker, someone who uses Clydesdales for farm work commercially.

Wheel wrights , etc etc etc all trades that have effectively gone due to progress.

"Mitigation" is being used as a new way of saying "Sometime in the future when it will not cost us"

Farmers are NOT exempt from responsibility for their pollution, and its time they started paying their share.

No one has said farming must, or will be sacrosanct.

We could drop farming by 90% and still feed NZ, we will simply need alternatives for exports.

Apple computer for example has a quarterly profit bigger than NZs entire GDP.

Time changes.

You just sound like you are throwing out sound bites from the Green Party Conference.

You have made no mention about the issues farmers have with the proposal, lack of genuine consultation etc and I suspect that is because you haven't actually listened to anything farmers have said.

I'm not going to argue about climate change, this thread is about the Labour Government/Jacinda Adern.

The points I have made are about the Labour response/proposal and how I believe it is seriously lacking.

sir1963

3428 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3756

Subscriber

#2982010 12-Oct-2022 15:55

marmel:

You just sound like you are throwing out sound bites from the Green Party Conference.

You have made no mention about the issues farmers have with the proposal, lack of genuine consultation etc and I suspect that is because you haven't actually listened to anything farmers have said.

I'm not going to argue about climate change, this thread is about the Labour Government/Jacinda Adern.

The points I have made are about the Labour response/proposal and how I believe it is seriously lacking.

Who cares what the farmers think, they are just like the very rich who believe they are entitled to a tax cut.

I will NOT vote greens, they are loonies, I can not vote Labour, Jacinda lied about "tax loop hole for landlords", National is all about the wealthy, and ACT...UGH.

I am more likely to vote McGillicuddy Serious Party next election or not at all.

marmel

1924 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 226

ID Verified

Trusted

#2982014 12-Oct-2022 16:01

sir1963:

marmel:

You just sound like you are throwing out sound bites from the Green Party Conference.

You have made no mention about the issues farmers have with the proposal, lack of genuine consultation etc and I suspect that is because you haven't actually listened to anything farmers have said.

I'm not going to argue about climate change, this thread is about the Labour Government/Jacinda Adern.

The points I have made are about the Labour response/proposal and how I believe it is seriously lacking.

Who cares what the farmers think, they are just like the very rich who believe they are entitled to a tax cut.

I will NOT vote greens, they are loonies, I can not vote Labour, Jacinda lied about "tax loop hole for landlords", National is all about the wealthy, and ACT...UGH.

I am more likely to vote McGillicuddy Serious Party next election or not at all.

I strongly disagree with your 'knowledge' of farmers which appears to be nil. I suggest you go for a drive and meet some. I've worked on farms and have family that are 5th generation on their farm so I might be a bit biased, but I know what farming and care of the land means to them.

However, I can agree with you on the choices for the election next year. The current National tax policy is political suicide in my opinion given it is mostly the centre voting block that elect governments. Labour has shown repeatedly they can not manage any type of major project or proposal without dropping the ball, the Green Party are a confused mess of ideological members battling amongst themselves, ACT is only ever a support act for National, doesn't really leave much left to choose from.

sir1963

3428 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3756

Subscriber

#2982022 12-Oct-2022 16:24

marmel:

I strongly disagree with your 'knowledge' of farmers which appears to be nil. I suggest you go for a drive and meet some. I've worked on farms and have family that are 5th generation on their farm so I might be a bit biased, but I know what farming and care of the land means to them.

However, I can agree with you on the choices for the election next year. The current National tax policy is political suicide in my opinion given it is mostly the centre voting block that elect governments. Labour has shown repeatedly they can not manage any type of major project or proposal without dropping the ball, the Green Party are a confused mess of ideological members battling amongst themselves, ACT is only ever a support act for National, doesn't really leave much left to choose from.

As a Kid I did Carrot picking and spuds in Ohakune

Did docking, grubbing of thistles, hay making , at age 9 or so we were out shooting rabbits, and going up and down the Paraparas on motorbikes and horses

We helped with the butchering of sheep to go in the freezer, hand reared lambs and calves, as well as plucking ducks, geese and chickens.

Out with a 2 man saw (to keep us out of the way) collecting firewood.

Spent weeks as teen following a tractor picking up sticks out of a paddock so it could be used for haymaking

Bottle collections for raising money for the local fire brigade

Paper run in the snow .

Wearing shirts made of flour sacks because we wrecked too many climbing trees and playing in creeks getting Kura for a meal.

But all of that is irrelevant , we are now at a stage where those who create the pollution MUST pay, and I include everyone in that, the throw away sh!t that shops sell, throw a recycling charge on it.

Make stuff so it can be fixed.

You pollute, you pay.

AliExpress

Shop now on AliExpress (affiliate link).

tdgeek

30048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9455

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2982073 12-Oct-2022 18:57

GV27:

Talk, however, is cheap.

It is. Action can cost. But maybe while it wont adversely affect you and me right now, who will it affect? Your kids, grandkids

As they say and quite correctly, There is no PLANet B

tdgeek

30048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9455

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2982075 12-Oct-2022 19:02

GV27:

The future is debatable and not quite written yet, but the costs we have to bear at any given time are very real. And the cageyness and reversion to platitudes makes it hard to judge whether we're spending money wisely or should be putting it towards some other form of mitigation or approaching it in a different way.

Its not debatable. If you wish to live in the moment and ignore the consequences for your family's future thats up to you

Its not about oh I live next to the beach, bugger, or a waterway. I can manage a bigger storm. If my lettuce patch gets shredded by hail, I can live with that

Its WAY beyond that.

End of the day, climate change is a huge issue for some. Others may choose that beef doesnt rise in price is more important. Use your vote.

tdgeek

30048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9455

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2982077 12-Oct-2022 19:07

marmel:

I think the concept of emissions mitigation is sound and farmers pretty much all agree on this, 99% of farmers are pretty good and want to do better for the environment. The issue is how you go about it with PROPER consultation.

Regardless of the Labour PR machine there wasn't any genuine consultation with farmers to come up with the He Waka Eke Noa plan. Dairy NZ and NZ Beef & Lamb who allegedly represented farmers views have become nothing more than marketing organizations and most genuine farmers are fairly pissed off with just how cosy they are with the current government. Farmers also get no say in levies paid to those two organisations as they are collected at the processing level so even if you wanted to withdraw your support you can't, other than voting out the boards at the AGM's.

This is just turning into a big mess for Labour, much like 3Waters which is now looking very unlikely to proceed in its current format.

I live in a small farming town, I see day to day the businesses that rely on the agriculture industry and to forge ahead with the current proposal is not only going to affect farmers but a huge number of supporting businesses as well.

Expect major protests around NZ, much larger than the earlier Groundswell events, and leading into an election year this is the last thing Labour will want.

I was raised on a farm, so Im not aloof to this. We did beef cattle, lambs and barley. You could ask the farmers, they will give you a farmers guideline. Its like asking burglars to opinionate on sentences. If your prophecy come to pass, im ok wth that, we can ignore climate change. But you would also need to take ownership, advise the importers, we are not interested in climate change, please buy my containers of beef, lamb and milk powder. Im good with that

tdgeek

30048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9455

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2982079 12-Oct-2022 19:16

GV27:

E: Your point about insurance is most relevant. I knew what my monthly premiums were going to be before I agreed to them, so I could make an informed decision about whether I was getting value for money.

Correct. Thats the value in "US" spending our taxpayers dollars on the future? No one can answer that. Science gives a very good guide. Weather damage, foods need to be relocated elsewhere, coastlines, the immense amount of Govt budgets covering of acts of God, year on year.

It all depends if some feel climate change is annoying and disruptive, or it changes everything. There is a point of no return where despite tech its too late. Its not going to bother you and me. There is no Plan(et) B

Personally, my level of security, my location, I couldn't care less if the worst came to the worst I can manage that. But its not about me.

1 | ... | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | 68 | 69 | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | 74 | ... | 118