NZ Election 2020

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Ultimate Geek
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#2548733 24-Aug-2020 14:27

Rikkitic:

dejadeadnz:

Taiwan has a population of 23.8 million. They have around 29% of our COVID cases. Deaths are also orders of magnitude lower. Now of course just plain straight-line comparisons of these kinds of stats aren't always helpful. But if people are going to (rightly) mock Trump and the right wing morons for diversionary tactics and making up crap, a sober analysis of where we can learn to potentially do better is also required as a matter of simply consistency, in addition to economic and public health necessity.

At some point people need to decide whether we want an informed and intelligent discussion or whether some of us just want to turn a discussion into a "I love X politician" blog for themselves.

Taiwan is exceptional. I'm not sure anyone knows exactly why. There are many variables with the Covid 19 virus that are still not well-understood. Perhaps there is a genetic difference with the virus strain there, or the local population. I don't know. I am not a geneticist. But there are many things that could account for this. Without knowing, holding Taiwan up as an example of anything is no better than loving a particular politician.

The things that probably help them the most are that they understood this virus early on as they have to protect themselves from China and anything that happens there

Masks are very common.

Displays of affection and getting close to each other are lower.

And obesity and diabetes are much lower. This virus loves people with those conditions.

MikeAqua

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#2548735 24-Aug-2020 14:31

freitasm:

Is it their jobs to challenge the sitting government even when it's doing a good job?

Good is subjective - and in the eyes of the opposition no govt is ever doing a good job (regardless of which party it is). The oppositions is always of the view that it would be better if they were in power, therefore undermining the govt is always doing good work.

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#2548736 24-Aug-2020 14:31

freitasm:
Varkk:

Yes, constructive criticism is always valuable. However, much of the behaviour from National's senior leadership has been neither constructive nor valuable. With Gerry Brownlee and his "Interesting series of facts" or Collins and her joking eyebrow. They are just trying to dilute facts and create an environment of fear, uncertainty and doubt about the current government. It is the same kind of tactics used by the Republicans in the US and the far right in Great Britain which have given us Trump and Brexit.

Exactly my point.

Criticism is a valid argument. Potshots, unfounded criticisms just for the sake of appearing in front of the cameras and appeasing the crowd of journalists that need a soundbite for the click rates is not.

If you haven't watched or listened to it I'd strongly suggest you go and watch / listen to the Simon Bridges politics in pubs interview that the spinoff ran. It gives you some insight into the reality of being an opposition leader.

If the opposition go too far criticising the government it backfires on them and strengthens the government. Andrew Little, who has proven to be a very good minister, got the Angry Andrew moniker for just that reason. It's hardly a problem unique to National.

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#2548740 24-Aug-2020 14:36

Rikkitic:
Taiwan is exceptional. I'm not sure anyone knows exactly why. There are many variables with the Covid 19 virus that are still not well-understood. Perhaps there is a genetic difference with the virus strain there, or the local population. I don't know. I am not a geneticist. But there are many things that could account for this. Without knowing, holding Taiwan up as an example of anything is no better than loving a particular politician.

NZ is the best. Except for the places that are better because they aren't New Zealand.

Seriously? What a Trumpian argument.

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#2548744 24-Aug-2020 14:38

Rikkitic:

No-one would ever describe a male politician as 'handsome' or 'ugly' when discussing his qualities as a leader. What does that have to do with anything that matters? The same applies to females.

You may wish to review your choice of avatar on the basis of the above statement.

Mike

Fred99

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#2548755 24-Aug-2020 14:42

MikeAqua:

freitasm:

Is it their jobs to challenge the sitting government even when it's doing a good job?

Good is subjective - and in the eyes of the opposition no govt is ever doing a good job (regardless of which party it is). The oppositions is always of the view that it would be better if they were in power, therefore undermining the govt is always doing good work.

Not for example as a response in the midst of a disaster. For example Labour voted to grant special powers under the EQ Recovery Act, then very much held back. Collins/Brownlee's uninformed ramblings and conspiracy theories are cynical opportunism. Voters and the media should punish them for it, but they've got a team of "rent a gob" opinion piece writers to create as much FUD as possible, even some people with normally rational views in this forum are being sucked in to the void.

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#2548756 24-Aug-2020 14:45

Fred99:

Not for example as a response in the midst of a disaster. For example Labour voted to grant special powers under the EQ Recovery Act, then very much held back. Collins/Brownlee's uninformed ramblings and conspiracy theories are cynical opportunism. Voters and the media should punish them for it, but they've got a team of "rent a gob" opinion piece writers to create as much FUD as possible, even some people with normally rational views in this forum are being sucked in to the void.

I think you're using very selective memory, Labour whined constantly about every little thing for quite a while.

That's the thing with being in the opposition, the current Government and it's supporters instantly wheel out the "opposition for oppositions sake" when ever they are disagreed with.

Fred99

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#2548759 24-Aug-2020 14:48

networkn:

I think you're using very selective memory, Labour whined constantly about every little thing for quite a while.

Not in the midst of dealing with the disaster they didn't. Remember when it was disclosed that the >$100 million spent on initial property inspections was found to be a complete and utter waste of time and money? (The whole lot had to be done again). You possibly don't remember because Labour said nothing, about the only media person covering that was John Campbell - who'd been demonised as a raging anti-government communist.

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#2548778 24-Aug-2020 15:09

Fred99:
networkn:

I think you're using very selective memory, Labour whined constantly about every little thing for quite a while.

Not in the midst of dealing with the disaster they didn't. Remember when it was disclosed that the >$100 million spent on initial property inspections was found to be a complete and utter waste of time and money? (The whole lot had to be done again). You possibly don't remember because Labour said nothing, about the only media person covering that was John Campbell - who'd been demonised as a raging anti-government communist.

How did that work out for them in the 2011 election?

dejadeadnz

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#2548782 24-Aug-2020 15:15

Rikkitic:

Taiwan is exceptional. I'm not sure anyone knows exactly why. There are many variables with the Covid 19 virus that are still not well-understood. Perhaps there is a genetic difference with the virus strain there, or the local population. I don't know. I am not a geneticist. But there are many things that could account for this. Without knowing, holding Taiwan up as an example of anything is no better than loving a particular politician.

Absolute and utter Trumpian BS. You need to get out of your little NZ-fan girl and "I love Ardern" bubble and start engaging with reality.

Here are some explanations on why they are streets ahead

The Taiwanese government acted quickly to control its borders. It activated a Central Epidemic Command Centre (CECC) on January 20 to coordinate cooperation across different government ministries and agencies, and between government and businesses. The CECC also coordinates big data analytics, testing, quarantine and contact tracing.

Taiwan’s National Health Insurance Administration and National Immigration Agency worked together to identify suspected cases for COVID-19 testing, integrating their databases of citizens’ medical and travel history. Since late March, all new arrivals must quarantine for 14 days.

CECC also partnered with police agencies, local officials and telecom companies to enforce quarantine with the support of mobile phone tracking. Local officials would call quarantined citizens to ask about their health and bring them basic daily supplies if required. Along with a 24-hour helpline, Taiwan’s Center for Disease Control collaborated with two tech companies – HTC and LINE) – to create a chatbot which allowed people to report their health status and get advice about the virus.

Taiwan can now test about 5,800 samples a day through a cooperative network of public and private testing centres and certified laboratories.

To avoid the panic buying of face masks, the government rationed their distribution and ramped up production. In February, the government partnered with the Machine Tool & Accessory Builders’ Association and manufacturers, investing in new machinery to produce surgical face masks. In return, manufacturers have to sell the masks back to the government at an agreed price.

This effective government-led cooperative strategy resulted in the establishment of 60 production lines in 25 days, something which would normally have taken several months. More production lines have been added, and Taiwan now can produce about 20 million masks a day.

The public can interact with the government on vTaiwan, a virtual democracy platform for open discussion to build consensus on policy solutions. A face mask map app grew out of a suggestion on vTaiwan and now provides real-time information on stock availiability. The app was developed through collaboration between the Digital Ministry and a group of entrepreneurs and hacktivists.

The fundamental problem with your response, however, is the sheer illogicality of it. You are happy to credit the NZ government with all the success for NZ's "best" (but not actually best) outcomes. When Taiwan beats NZ to a pulp in terms of numbers (how much fluke do you think you will see across a population of 23.8 million?), it could just be a fluke.

It's time to blog a little bit less.

freitasm

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#2548786 24-Aug-2020 15:23

dejadeadnz:

Absolute and utter Trumpian BS. You need to get out of your little NZ-fan girl and "I love Ardern" bubble and start engaging with reality.

Here are some explanations on why they are streets ahead

The Taiwanese government acted quickly to control its borders. It activated a Central Epidemic Command Centre (CECC) on January 20 to coordinate cooperation across different government ministries and agencies, and between government and businesses. The CECC also coordinates big data analytics, testing, quarantine and contact tracing.

Taiwan’s National Health Insurance Administration and National Immigration Agency worked together to identify suspected cases for COVID-19 testing, integrating their databases of citizens’ medical and travel history. Since late March, all new arrivals must quarantine for 14 days.

CECC also partnered with police agencies, local officials and telecom companies to enforce quarantine with the support of mobile phone tracking. Local officials would call quarantined citizens to ask about their health and bring them basic daily supplies if required. Along with a 24-hour helpline, Taiwan’s Center for Disease Control collaborated with two tech companies – HTC and LINE) – to create a chatbot which allowed people to report their health status and get advice about the virus.

Taiwan can now test about 5,800 samples a day through a cooperative network of public and private testing centres and certified laboratories.

To avoid the panic buying of face masks, the government rationed their distribution and ramped up production. In February, the government partnered with the Machine Tool & Accessory Builders’ Association and manufacturers, investing in new machinery to produce surgical face masks. In return, manufacturers have to sell the masks back to the government at an agreed price.

This effective government-led cooperative strategy resulted in the establishment of 60 production lines in 25 days, something which would normally have taken several months. More production lines have been added, and Taiwan now can produce about 20 million masks a day.

The public can interact with the government on vTaiwan, a virtual democracy platform for open discussion to build consensus on policy solutions. A face mask map app grew out of a suggestion on vTaiwan and now provides real-time information on stock availiability. The app was developed through collaboration between the Digital Ministry and a group of entrepreneurs and hacktivists.

The fundamental problem with your response, however, is the sheer illogicality of it. You are happy to credit the NZ government with all the success for NZ's "best" (but not actually best) outcomes. When Taiwan beats NZ to a pulp in terms of numbers (how much fluke do you think you will see across a population of 23.8 million?), it could just be a fluke.

I don't understand.

New Zealand has closed its borders. All arrivals have to go into managed isolation. We have testing capability and have been testing at fast rate. We have masks available (I've ordered online and seen plenty around local stores). The government has been communicating - so much that some people made joke page on IMDB for the "1pm show" and some people complained that the PM on TV was political campaigning (conspiracy theorists much?).

I do not understand what you are trying to say, for the first time.

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dejadeadnz

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#2548789 24-Aug-2020 15:24

Look at how much earlier they achieved all this and consider the disadvantages they operated under. My point is that it's fundamentally illogical to assume that Taiwan has the outstanding numbers that it has perhaps due to luck, as another poster tried to assert. Precisely how they got to where they got to isn't the most important for that debate. What matters is that, given the early and decisive steps that they took when they had no WHO support, and doing all this despite them being close to and highly dependent on trade with China, suggest there was a level of deliberate intelligence behind their actions.

Edit: terrible typos and crap grammar.

Handle9

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#2548792 24-Aug-2020 15:26

It's fairly straightforward. Taiwan acted faster, implemented better and more efficiently and has been able to sustain more effectively than NZ.

The statement was made that NZ had the "best" Covid response. It's just not true.

freitasm

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#2548794 24-Aug-2020 15:30

Handle9: It's fairly straightforward. Taiwan acted faster, implemented better and more efficiently and has been able to sustain more effectively than NZ.

The statement was made that NZ had the "best" Covid response. It's just not true.

It maybe not the best - and things can be done better. But people to put it completely down or on the "FAIL" column are joking themselves. And I tell you that I've seen a lot of people doing this.

dejadeadnz:

Look at how much earlier they achieved all this and consider the disadvantages they operated under. My point is that it's fundamentally illogical to assume that Taiwan has the outstanding numbers that it has perhaps due to luck, as another poster tried to assert. Precisely how they got to where they got to isn't the most important for that debate. What matters is that, given the early and decisive steps that they took when they had no WHO support, and doing all this despite them being close to and highly dependent on trade with China, suggest there was a level of deliberate intelligence behind their actions.

Edit: terrible typos and crap grammar.

Great for Taiwan. They're an example. As I said above, we are not doing so terribly either.

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Handle9

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#2548797 24-Aug-2020 15:33

The cheerleaders who can't find any fault with the COVID response are just as bad as those who find failure in everything.

Both are hacks.

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