Elon Musk, the man

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#3334260 21-Jan-2025 17:54

SumnerBoy:

You have zero evidence that Musk is a Nazi supporter, much like I have zero evidence that he isn't.

But you have climbed up on your soap box and are shouting down at anyone who dares disagree with you.

Just stop and think about that for a second.

As a German with experience of life, who was allowed to come to terms with the whole Nazi past at school, who is to help elect a new government in 5 weeks' time, who sees what is going on here locally, I can tell you (without really meaning it personally):

Sorry, but you are a clueless, stupid boy who still wants to discuss things naively while facts are already being created elsewhere.

Qui nihil scit, omnia credere debet.
Firewalls do NOT stop dragons.
In effect we have everything to hide from someone, and no idea who someone is.

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#3334263 21-Jan-2025 18:03

SumnerBoy:
Wow, just wow. All of that because my opinion differs from yours. I am certainly no Nazi apologist or sympathiser and the implication that I am is quite frankly offensive.

You don't dictate what is fact and what isn't. Neither do I.

You have zero evidence that Musk is a Nazi supporter, much like I have zero evidence that he isn't.

But you have climbed up on your soap box and are shouting down at anyone who dares disagree with you.

I think it is sad, I really do, and is a sign of the deeper issues we have as a society where you are either in one camp or the other, and there is no middle ground anymore. You are labelling me a Nazi apologist because I disagree with your subjective view about a hand gesture.

Just stop and think about that for a second.

Your enlightened centrism bs isn't working. No evidence Musk is a nazi? The guy who openly aligns with the AFD? Really?

This sad moral grandstanding is insane to me. Why must there be middle ground in this discussion. This isn't some crap where you like cheese and he likes butter.

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#3334267 21-Jan-2025 18:22

SumnerBoy:

You have zero evidence that Musk is a Nazi supporter, much like I have zero evidence that he isn't.

Merriam Webster Dictionary:

Evidence (noun).

a. an outward sign

b. something that furnishes proof

Evidence has been presented. You don't like the evidence, but it's evidence, and as such you don't get to choose its definition to fit your poorly formed arguments.

SumnerBoy

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#3334269 21-Jan-2025 18:29

Tinkerisk:

As a German with experience of life, who was allowed to come to terms with the whole Nazi past at school, who is to help elect a new government in 5 weeks' time, who sees what is going on here locally, I can tell you (without really meaning it personally):

Sorry, but you are a clueless, stupid boy who still wants to discuss things naively while facts are already being created elsewhere.

Ok, so enlighten me. I would love to learn your perspective and obvious insights into this matter, ideally without resorting to name calling.

Just so we are clear, I am not a boy. But I also have no clue about German politics. In fact I try and avoid all politics, and until this fateful day was pretty successful...

I do understand there has been a significant increase in far-right rhetoric over the last 5-10yrs and that Trump is certainly responsible for stirring a lot of that up. I haven't been following everything that Musk has said or done however.

FWIW my opinion on Musk is that he is a brilliant engineer but is most definitely on "the spectrum". He is socially awkward and sometimes does and says things, particularly when he is excited or wound up, which come off very poorly. I don't think he considers how his outbursts will be perceived, he just doesn't have that filter. I also think he has become very disillusioned with the left, and all the wokeism that has emerged. It is almost like he has swung against that as far as he can go, without really considering the implications. I genuinely don't think he is a Nazi apologist. For example he openly supports legal immigration in the US, afterall he is an immigrant himself. But he also says and does things which I will admit make him look very bad. I just don't believe that is how is actually thinks deep down. As I have said, I may well be wrong, but all he has done with his innovations and companies have been with the betterment of humanity as their goal (or so he claims).

And this comes back to the argument that started this big pile on - I don't believe his gesture today was meant to be a Nazi salute. I accept most others in here disagree, and I can see why you think that, based on his support of Trump and the AFD etc. But in "my opinion" I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt in this case.

Is that really so bad?!

freitasm

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#3334271 21-Jan-2025 18:34

@SumnerBoy:

Is that really so bad?!

That's why I have only warned people posting claims without evidence.

On one side, support for AfD, Reform UK, French National Rally, and other actions is the evidence I need to support my opinion.

On the other side, you are claiming moderation. I accept that.

I don't accept someone posting a claim with whataboutism and not providing any evidence when asked for it.

See the difference?

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#3334273 21-Jan-2025 18:37

gehenna: Then you are beyond help.

It is really hard to engage in meaningful discussion with these sorts of comments. You don't know me, and I don't know you. I am prepared to listen to the other side without resorting to name calling or the like. You might like to try it one day, you might learn something from someone with a different point of view.

Just as I am learning plenty in here today...

PsychoSmiley

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#3334274 21-Jan-2025 18:40

SumnerBoy:

FWIW my opinion on Musk is that he is a brilliant engineer but is most definitely on "the spectrum". He is socially awkward and sometimes does and says things, particularly when he is excited or wound up, which come off very poorly. I don't think he considers how his outbursts will be perceived, he just doesn't have that filter.

Being on "the spectrum" doesn't give you free pass nor should be it be a justified excuse in this case? Was it once? No. Was it twice? No. Three times. He knows what he's doing and he knows he can because he's filthy stinking rich and in the elite circle now nobody can do a damn thing about short of somebody going Luigi on him.

As for a brilliant engineer? No. He's clever but he also has a shit tonne of money backing him and he can buy into and claim anything as his own. This is a man who claims to the be the worlds best gamer in many things because has demonstrated himself to be utterly clueless when somebody in that claimed position shouldn't be (see the PoE2 stuff going on). Paying people to grind his account and then claiming the success as his own? Hmmm seems a lot like what he does in real life. Given his need to inflate himself in such petty matters shows really his character elsewhere.

SumnerBoy

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#3334275 21-Jan-2025 18:41

freitasm:

See the difference?

I do.

In my defence I was only trying to defend CrazyM who I felt was making a comparison on how things can be misrepresented or misunderstood when viewed without the full context. And not that he/she believed Kamala/Hillary was giving the Nazi salute, which if I am not mistaken is the "whataboutism" you mention (I have never heard that term before)?

freitasm

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#3334276 21-Jan-2025 18:42

SumnerBoy:

freitasm:

See the difference?

... is the "whataboutism" you mention (I have never heard that term before)?

Learn something every day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

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SumnerBoy

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#3334279 21-Jan-2025 18:57

Don't worry folks, after this experience I will no longer be participating in any political discussions in here.

I will stick to tech only, where everyone plays much nicer.

All the best.

BarTender

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#3334285 21-Jan-2025 19:21

I think this post covers it the best. https://mastodon.nz/@runoutgroover/113864542419327860

gehenna

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#3334290 21-Jan-2025 19:56

SumnerBoy:

gehenna: Then you are beyond help.

It is really hard to engage in meaningful discussion with these sorts of comments. You don't know me, and I don't know you. I am prepared to listen to the other side without resorting to name calling or the like. You might like to try it one day, you might learn something from someone with a different point of view.

Just as I am learning plenty in here today...

Which is why I deleted it, immediately. There was also no name calling.

Kyanar

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#3334301 21-Jan-2025 20:33

SumnerBoy:

You have zero evidence that Musk is a Nazi supporter, much like I have zero evidence that he isn't.

Yeah, no. He has ardently supported AfD, a political party in Germany so close to Nazi ideology that they're considering whether to ban it, as well as Reform UK, the UK's far-right Conservative party, the Canadian Tories, and let's not forget MAGA (I usually half-jokingly dub them the "ReTrumplican Party" because they're unrecognisable compared to what used to be the Republican Party these days, but GZ rules don't permit that). On top of that, he's actively meddling in the internal politics of foreign countries (including intervening to affect democratic elections), platforming Nazi ideology on X, and, heck, just listening to the guy talk.

We have ample evidence he's a Nazi supporter. But I can certainly agree you have none that he isn't. I will, however, credit you one point: it's technically impossible to prove a negative.

SumnerBoy

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#3334315 21-Jan-2025 21:15

Kyanar:

Yeah, no. He has ardently supported AfD, a political party in Germany so close to Nazi ideology that they're considering whether to ban it, as well as Reform UK, the UK's far-right Conservative party, the Canadian Tories, and let's not forget MAGA (I usually half-jokingly dub them the "ReTrumplican Party" because they're unrecognisable compared to what used to be the Republican Party these days, but GZ rules don't permit that). On top of that, he's actively meddling in the internal politics of foreign countries (including intervening to affect democratic elections), platforming Nazi ideology on X, and, heck, just listening to the guy talk.

We have ample evidence he's a Nazi supporter. But I can certainly agree you have none that he isn't. I will, however, credit you one point: it's technically impossible to prove a negative.

I would argue none of that is "evidence" he is a Nazi supporter. It certainly shows he supports right-wing politics and some of those groups are indeed tip-toeing the line with fascism.

But that doesn't make him a Nazi supporter. It may well be the case that he is, I certainly concede that it is a possibility, but I disagree that your points above are "evidence" of the fact.

As for platforming Nazi ideology on X, he has platformed everything on X, that was his whole reason for buying it. Create an open forum for all, with no one person or organisation having the power to decide what is right or wrong, truth or not. Community notes are designed to allow so-called misinformation to be called out, by the community, not the left-biased Silicon Valley elites who run most of the social media platforms.

It has been shown that the solcial media platforms were instructed to de-platform and suppress certain narratives that the leadership of the time deemed unsafe, which later turned out to be mostly true, e.g. Hunter Biden's laptop. That sort of thing is not conducive to healthy public discourse. In fact, you could argue that Musk's stance on censorship is very anti-Nazi!

I don't agree or support Nazi's, and think their ideology is disgusting, but de-platforming them just forces them underground into echo chambers where there is no chance for reasoned debate. Have you heard of Daryl Davis? That is an incredible story of a guy who managed to make significant change just by having open discussions with those he disgreed with. You are not going to win them all over, but you certainly have more chance if you actually talk to them, rather than silence and censor them.

Damn it, I promised myself I would stop...

freitasm

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#3334317 21-Jan-2025 21:17

@SumnerBoy what exactly was Hunter's laptop?

Because at the end he was only found guilty of buying a gyn while under influence.

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