Ukraine War discussion

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435 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2938367 4-Jul-2022 20:31

Tinkerisk:

It's funny that you're talking about 'we' here and you're not allowed to play at all. :-)

Why is that?

We have been drawn into the two largest European started wars, sent men to die for Queen and country too.

We all lose if it comes down to a full nuclear war.

Tinkerisk

4233 posts

Uber Geek

#2938383 5-Jul-2022 02:05

As far as I'm concerned, you can choose what you want to die for - but it looks like you'd have to declare war on Putin yourself and independently this time. You are a MNNA (major non-NATO ally) but thanks to your anti-nuclear attitude out of ANZUS and out of NATO. Whether you are allowed to play would have to be decided by all members first (and not by the USA alone nor UK nor the Queen) and there could be a few concerns within the EU because we'd have to take a class trip to NZ in case whoever attacks you there.

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gzt

17146 posts

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#2938386 5-Jul-2022 06:56

Tinkerisk: You are a MNNA (major non-NATO ally) but thanks to your anti-nuclear attitude out of ANZUS and out of NATO.

You're absolutely wrong on this point. NZ is an active member of ANZUS. NZ has never been a member of NATO. NZ continues to have active relations with NATO as seen with Ardern's presence at NATO meetings this week. In addition NZ continues to materially support the defense of Ukraine.

Tinkerisk

4233 posts

Uber Geek

#2938390 5-Jul-2022 07:43

gzt: You're absolutely wrong on this point.

It may be that I expressed myself somewhat awkwardly or incorrectly - please forgive me for this. So here's what I meant:

“NZ is an active member of ANZUS.“

Yes, I meant AUKUS, a trilateral security pact between Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United States. It involves cooperation in nuclear submarines that New Zealand will not support.

„NZ has never been a member of NATO. NZ continues to have active relations with NATO as seen with Ardern's presence at NATO meetings this week.“

Yes, as an invited guest - not a member. A ban on nuclear weapons and NATO membership are mutually exclusive. NATO has no alliance case commitment as an obligation to NZ - just as NZ has none to NATO.

„In addition NZ continues to materially support the defense of Ukraine.“

Yes, at your own discretion and training via the UK.

gzt

17146 posts

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#2938411 5-Jul-2022 10:11

Tinkerisk: Yes, as an invited guest - not a member. A ban on nuclear weapons and NATO membership are mutually exclusive. NATO has no alliance case commitment as an obligation to NZ - just as NZ has none to NATO.

Once again your comments are misleading. NZ has never applied for or desired full NATO membership. Our stance on nuclear weapons has not been an issue in that arena. As for your claim that a ban on nuclear weapons and full NATO membership is incompatible, well, I believe this has never been tested in practice or even raised by any country. Interestingly I believe Ukraine and Belarus previously proposed a nuclear weapon free zone for that area. Unfortunately I expect that is not a priority for either country at this time.

elpenguino

3424 posts

Uber Geek

#2938530 5-Jul-2022 14:35

Tinkerisk:

gzt: You're absolutely wrong on this point.

It may be that I expressed myself somewhat awkwardly or incorrectly - please forgive me for this. So here's what I meant:

“NZ is an active member of ANZUS.“

Yes, I meant AUKUS, a trilateral security pact between Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United States. It involves cooperation in nuclear submarines that New Zealand will not support.

„NZ has never been a member of NATO. NZ continues to have active relations with NATO as seen with Ardern's presence at NATO meetings this week.“

Yes, as an invited guest - not a member. A ban on nuclear weapons and NATO membership are mutually exclusive. NATO has no alliance case commitment as an obligation to NZ - just as NZ has none to NATO.

„In addition NZ continues to materially support the defense of Ukraine.“

Yes, at your own discretion and training via the UK.

NZ was never in AUKUS either, that's a specific arrangement for the submarine project, as far as I can gather.

You mentioned NZ and independence and that's the keyword. NZ has taken a more independent defence stance for the last couple of decades or so and supports a 'rule based order' which means stick to your established borders and use diplomacy and international institutions to agree on everything. That's why NZ is rightfully opposed to the unilateral invasion of Ukraine.

NZ would be vulnerable to every tom dick and harry if other countries think they can 'denazify' any other country they want and get away with it.

Of course, when push comes to shove, NZ has many countries with which it 'shares values' and would align itself.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

Tinkerisk

4233 posts

Uber Geek

#2938535 5-Jul-2022 14:50

Again, my point isn't that you weren't in NATO, but that you couldn't get into NATO even if you wanted to, and that's why you can't interfere in NATO politics - it's so difficult to understand? If you want to launch military action in Ukraine, you can at your own discretion. But if you only have knives, you shouldn't go to a gunfight.

Here, a few posts earlier one loosely talked about cleaning up the Ukraine for a moment and throwing out the Russians - that's exactly what YOU (alone) will NOT do, that's a matter for NATO. And when the word NATO is mentioned, 32 states are affected and have to be deployed - with a high risk of a nuclear war - no one in NZ has us to recommend that like it was done here from a safe distance. Two world wars were told here, in which England asked for help. This situation is very different. Is that clearer now?

Handsomedan

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#2938552 5-Jul-2022 15:48

All this talk of NZ and NATO.

I was always under the impression that NATO was a Euro/US exclusive club anyway. Wasn't it set up to hem the border of the USSR? Or am I wildly wrong here?

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Handsome Dan does not currently have a side hustle as the mascot for Yale

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Tinkerisk

4233 posts

Uber Geek

#2938564 5-Jul-2022 16:28

Handsomedan:

All this talk of NZ and NATO.

I was always under the impression that NATO was a Euro/US exclusive club anyway. Wasn't it set up to hem the border of the USSR? Or am I wildly wrong here?

Actually, it does. Over time, however, further alliances have formed around NATO, primarily at the instigation of the USA, which we in Europe don't think is that great as a bloc formation.

elpenguino

3424 posts

Uber Geek

#2938588 5-Jul-2022 17:07

Tinkerisk:

Again, my point isn't that you weren't in NATO, but that you couldn't get into NATO even if you wanted to, and that's why you can't interfere in NATO politics - it's so difficult to understand?

Well now that you've actually come out and said it, it's very clear :-)

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

gzt

17146 posts

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#2938598 5-Jul-2022 17:40

Tinkerisk: Again, my point isn't that you weren't in NATO, but that you couldn't get into NATO even if you wanted to, and that's why you can't interfere in NATO politics -

The main reason is because NZ is thousands of miles from Europe and the North Atlantic. Same reason as other countries with that status. As noted earlier New Zealand has status of major non-nato ally along with countries like Japan. It is clear.

Daynger

435 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2938650 5-Jul-2022 21:26

We may not be part of Nato, but we are part of the Commonweath.

If the UK goes to war we will be asked to pitch in like usual.

Likewise we are part of ANZUS, if the US goes to war its likely we will be asked to pitch in.

Handsomedan

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#2938763 6-Jul-2022 11:26

Daynger:

We may not be part of Nato, but we are part of the Commonweath.

If the UK goes to war we will be asked to pitch in like usual.

Likewise we are part of ANZUS, if the US goes to war its likely we will be asked to pitch in.

All depends on what we are asked to pitch in.

Usually, like the Gulf Wars and Afghanistan, it's "logistics" and the SAS.

Ultimately, our military budget is very small and our armed forces relatively small and ill-equipped for mass-deployment.

I'd say we'd be a logistics partner in any full-scale war unless it ended up as a standard (WW2-style) battle in the Pacific. At which time our Govt would have to reassess our status.

Handsome Dan Has Spoken.
Handsome Dan needs to stop adding three dots to every sentence...

Handsome Dan does not currently have a side hustle as the mascot for Yale

*Gladly accepting donations...

ezbee

2406 posts

Uber Geek

#2938847 6-Jul-2022 15:01

Rostov on Don

Life In Russia Under Sanctions | 4 Months: Ghost Shopping Malls, Dying Businesses, Personal Low
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RoxVKE5Asc

If you hate crowds then it seems a good time, not so great if you are paying rent on the shop though
Of course he can't say certain things directly, that would be very dangerous.

Price comparisons are tricky as Ruble is not freely traded, so exchange quite artificial.
In another article there was talk of 40% rise in price of things like butter, and the pack sizes decreasing.

Russia’s Car Manufacturing Collapses by 97% in May
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/06/30/russias-car-manufacturing-collapses-by-97-in-may-a78151

""
Truck and bus production in May fell by nearly 40% and 6.5%, respectively, compared with May 2021.
""

All going to plan really.

Tinkerisk

4233 posts

Uber Geek

#2938909 6-Jul-2022 16:38

ezbee:

All going to plan really.

On the other hand.

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