Ukraine War discussion

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Awrrr
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#2950869 5-Aug-2022 10:44

itxtme:

Amnesty international is coming across as an organisation void of conscience and integrity. They would rather see Ukraine troops head to open fields for slaughter, and Bucha X1000 occur. I suspect they are going to see a lot of donations disappear with people turned off by their stance.

Ukrainian forces have put civilians in harm’s way by establishing bases and operating weapons systems in populated residential areas.

https://twitter.com/amnesty/status/1555102962623594496?s=20&t=I2q0bkOkPcIGP4XQm-208g

Sounds like a Russian hack to me. I wouldn't believe anything from a single source these days.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

kingdragonfly

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#2950884 5-Aug-2022 11:34

itxtme:
Amnesty international is coming across as an organisation void of conscience and integrity. They would rather see Ukraine troops head to open fields for slaughter, and Bucha X1000 occur. I suspect they are going to see a lot of donations disappear with people turned off by their stance.

This Amnesty International clause pretty much encapsulates it: "Ukrainian forces were ... sometimes living in residential flats." and "It also criticised the Ukrainian army for not evacuating civilians who could be caught up in the crossfire."

What is Amnesty International expecting when a murderous and plundering invading enemy is roaming a country?

The Guardian: Ukraine ‘endangers civilians’ with army bases in residential areas, says Amnesty

Amnesty International has said the Ukrainian army is endangering the life of civilians by basing themselves in residential areas, in a report rejected by Ukrainian government representatives as placing blame on it for Russia’s invasion.

The human rights group’s researchers found that Ukrainian forces were using some schools and hospitals as bases, firing near houses and sometimes living in residential flats. The report concluded that this meant in some instances Russian forces would respond to an attack or target residential areas – putting civilians at risk and damaging civilian infrastructure.

neb

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#2950904 5-Aug-2022 12:42

itxtme:
Amnesty international is coming across as an organisation void of conscience and integrity.

They're showing that they're impartial. If the report was "Russian forces were using some schools and hospitals as bases, firing near houses and sometimes living in residential flats" (which they've repeatedly done) there's global outrage. Change one word, "Ukrainian forces were using some schools and hospitals as bases, firing near houses and sometimes living in residential flats", and it's still bad because it makes said schools and hospitals targets. As has been pointed out there are the realities of war, but an organisation like Amnesty that's supposed to be impartial can't condemn something if the Russians are doing it but remain silent when Ukrainians do exactly the same thing. It's then up to readers/viewers to acknowledge that there's a difference in circumstances between the Russians doing it and the Ukrainians doing it.

gzt

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#2950906 5-Aug-2022 12:43

itxtme: Amnesty international is coming across as an organisation void of conscience and integrity. They would rather see Ukraine troops head to open fields for slaughter, and Bucha X1000 occur. I suspect they are going to see a lot of donations disappear with people turned off by their stance.

Amnesty has many issues with Russia's military forces and strategy. Is it really surprising that Amnesty has some issues with Ukraine's. Personally I have not read the report and cannot tell you what is in it or how big a part that is.

kingdragonfly

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#2951718 7-Aug-2022 16:17

Reuters: Head of Amnesty's Ukraine office quits after group accuses Kyiv

KYIV, Aug 6 (Reuters) - The head of Amnesty International's Ukraine office has quit the human rights body in a disagreement with it after the group accused Ukraine's armed forces of endangering civilians by basing troops in residential areas during the Russian invasion.

Amnesty made the comments in a report published on Thursday that drew fierce criticism from the Ukrainian government. President Volodymyr Zelenskiy led denunciations of Amnesty's allegations, accusing the group of "trying to shift the responsibility from the aggressor to the victim"

Amnesty's Ukraine head Oksana Pokalchuk said on Facebook late on Friday that she was resigning as she opposed the report's publication, and now understood that she could not get it changed or removed.

Pokalchuk said Amnesty unwittingly "created material that sounded like support for Russian narratives of the invasion. In an effort to protect civilians, this study became a tool of Russian propaganda".

...Ukrainian officials say they take every possible measure to evacuate civilians from front-line areas. Russia denies targeting civilians in what it describes as a "special military operation" in Ukraine.
...

ezbee

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#2952891 10-Aug-2022 10:49

From DailyKOS
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/8/8/2115363/-A-piece-of-antiwar-media-in-Russia#comment_84231459

“Masyanya”:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masyanya

This is a very popular Russian animation, a kind of comedy for adults along the lines of “South Park”, but less political and more light-hearted.

In early July, Episode 162 of Masyanya, “St. Mariuburg”, came out, described as
“An episode regarding empathy.”
This was unlike anything the show has done before (although they had previously released two episodes critical of the war, it was nowhere near this level of clarity.) This is no longer comedy. It is trying, desperately, to get through to people in Russia.

Empathy, something that for the moment seems to be lacking in Russia, and certain NGO.
Cartoon has Russians suffering under Chinese invasion to rid Russia of NAZIs and regain ancestral lands.

https://youtu.be/s-GLAIY4DXA

This video has english subtitles click CC apart from one bit near the end where Chinese soldiers are talking.
""
“Is there anyone down there? Can you see anything?”

“I don’t know, but it looks dangerous. Let’s not go there.”

“I agree, I’d also rather not go down there. Just toss something [a grenade] in.”
""

neb

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#2953075 10-Aug-2022 17:21

ezbee:
In early July, Episode 162 of Masyanya, “St. Mariuburg”, came out, described as
“An episode regarding empathy.”
This was unlike anything the show has done before (although they had previously released two episodes critical of the war, it was nowhere near this level of clarity.) This is no longer comedy. It is trying, desperately, to get through to people in Russia.

That's really dark.

Something else that you pretty much have to be Russian to understand is the section around 8:30 where Badya lists how his family died. Google "Only Tanya is left", that's a story that every Russian will know, particularly the older generations.

tdgeek

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#2953132 10-Aug-2022 17:45

I see UKR is targeting Crimea

PolicyGuy

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#2953145 10-Aug-2022 18:05

tdgeek:

I see UKR is targeting Crimea

Officially denied by the Ukraine government

They did suggest it could be "partisans", who would be anti-Russian Crimeans, but that might be mischief making.
It seems quite possible that this was another catastrophic Russian industrial accident.

"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

tdgeek

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#2953254 11-Aug-2022 07:30

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/300659063/ukraine-says-nine-russian-warplanes-were-destroyed-in-crimea-blasts

Looks like the Crimea attack never happened... according to Russia

UKR has stated (officially or not) that Crimea is to be liberated, so to me, that's the lay of the land now

tdgeek

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#2953262 11-Aug-2022 07:59

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2022/08/china-calls-us-main-instigator-of-ukraine-crisis.html

Not sure how. NATO wasnt expanding state by state prior to the war

If anyone wants to align with UKR and have them be more EU-ish thats up to the independent self governing country of Ukraine

The fact is that Russia and China want to further their own takeover agendas, using their aggressive tactics so they are miffed. Pot calling the kettle black syndrome. China also expanding its threats directly and passively to the West. Perhaps its time for the West to passively and slowly reduce its reliance on China, "we are reducing trade due to technical difficulties" lets borrow that term from the Russians

wellygary

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#2953286 11-Aug-2022 09:01

tdgeek:

Perhaps its time for the West to passively and slowly reduce its reliance on China, "we are reducing trade due to technical difficulties" lets borrow that term from the Russians

What do you mean passively, there is currently a very overt and deliberate decoupling going on in many sectors ( particularly in the US),

The CHIPS act just passed in the US, pretty much all of the 5 eyes countries have frozen China out of 5G etc etc

Heck even Trevor Mallard is telling MPs not to install Tic-Tok on work phones :)

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/09/biden-to-sign-chips-act-china-competition-bill.html

"President Joe Biden signed into law a bipartisan bill that aims to boost U.S. competitiveness with China.

The bill includes more than $52 billion for U.S. companies producing semiconductors, as well as billions more in tax credits to encourage investment in chip manufacturing.

The White House said that multiple companies, "spurred" by the chips bill, have announced more than $44 billion in new semiconductor manufacturing investments"

tdgeek

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#2953317 11-Aug-2022 10:07

wellygary:

What do you mean passively, there is currently a very overt and deliberate decoupling going on in many sectors ( particularly in the US),

The CHIPS act just passed in the US, pretty much all of the 5 eyes countries have frozen China out of 5G etc etc

Heck even Trevor Mallard is telling MPs not to install Tic-Tok on work phones :)

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/09/biden-to-sign-chips-act-china-competition-bill.html

"President Joe Biden signed into law a bipartisan bill that aims to boost U.S. competitiveness with China.

The bill includes more than $52 billion for U.S. companies producing semiconductors, as well as billions more in tax credits to encourage investment in chip manufacturing.

The White House said that multiple companies, "spurred" by the chips bill, have announced more than $44 billion in new semiconductor manufacturing investments"

There has been a lengthy semiconductor problem globally, so this makes sense. We have seen what reliance can do, re UKR. Its not like its a sudden move to aggravate China, although thats a good result right now based on China's recent and past actions. Id like to see more products made in the USA although they wont be as cheap by a wide margin

linw

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#2953376 11-Aug-2022 10:46

Yes, they won't be nearly as cheap but cheaper than the alternative I guess.

ezbee

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#2953400 11-Aug-2022 11:21

On Tik Tok, regrettably a lot of electioneering will be done on Tik Tok.
While it might not be on MP's phones directly it will be on their electoral offices, and assistants phones.
Tik tok is probably a center of our youth engagement for many Government departments feeding them income ?

Ukraine is using Tik Tok extensively, like DJI 'tattle tale' drones out of necessity.

If USA and others just required China tech companies raising capital to meet same stock exchange listing rules as their own companies it would help a lot.
As far as privacy, data security, and trust of data access, well thats not really a thing where the one party of 6.5% has absolute control.
Even less when it distills down to one person.

Chips ACT, well I would like to be optimistic but.
Advanced Semiconductors are no use without leadframes and packaging.
Nor commodity semiconductors, analog, power supply, sensors, capacitors, connectors, PCB assembly and so on.

Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia? various South America, India etc are going to be every more important to a diversified supply chain.
For USA much of the solution is on their doorstep, except for the headlong rush to China.

For New Zealand China dependence is a 'very' critical issue.
Think economic dependence of New Zealand before UK joined the EU, possibly much worse.

We have a lot of our eggs in one basket.
A basket that does not share our view of democracy, due process or fairness, nine dash line and what a security agreement entails.

What's it to do with Ukraine, well Russia its all the same thing, they wanted compliant vassal states as much as China wants.

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