An account of racism (Herald article) ...

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#248326 19-Mar-2019 19:57

Dr Julie Bhosale shares daily racism directed at immigrant husband

Excerpts

One remarkable day he was doing a drop off to an upmarket Auckland grocer. Once he'd dropped off the deliveries, he went inside to buy a coffee.

A lady in her 50s asked the barista: "Are they even allowed to buy coffee in here?"

She assumed again because he is Indian and coming into a courier company ... Just spoke down to him because that is how "they" should be spoken to.

This was three days after the worst act of racism our country has witnessed in some time.

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#2202104 19-Mar-2019 22:07

I'm biased, but I worked with Dr Bhosale's husband ten years ago and he is an absolute top bloke - gets me riled up to hear him being treated like this.

Fred99

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#2202162 20-Mar-2019 00:20

solutionz:

No one should be treated like that - but again the examples given all appear to be cases of rude people and generalising of the occupation (delivering stuff) as opposed to blatant racism.

Cases of "rude people" - that's delusional. What on earth do you think "blatant racism" is?

Seems pretty clear to me that if as reported people are making (negative) value judgements about you, depending on what colour your skin is, and overtly acting on those judgements, that's about as blatant as it could get short of doing something so horrifically bad they could probably be charged with a hate crime!

FWIW, this is routine blatant racism in NZ, and many people who "look South Asian" get treated this way routinely.

And an edit, this is a deeply troubling comment:

especially supposedly perpetrated by "white people" is itself incredibly racist and perfect fodder for those actual unhinged extremists to feed on

I'll take a breath, and pray for the future of your children, that they'll never think saying anything like that under the present circumstances is even close to being acceptable. The way you're coming across makes it look like you're beyond redemption. It sounds like alt-right identitarian crap to me.

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#2202167 20-Mar-2019 00:35

And another thing

one really has to question the truth and motivations of the article

You don't like what you've been told, so that's basis to reject the lot - by questioning whether it's true.

Handle9

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#2202175 20-Mar-2019 05:16

solutionz:
I think we have to be careful not to conflate racism with class-ism, elitism, general discrimination and nastiness of which we all face - probably on a daily basis.

Yes some a minority of people are especially nasty - and possibly racist and should be held to account. However it's human nature to generalise and in many cases you are going to get judged by your age, looks, circumstances etc etc.

...husband did some food deliveries for a fellow business... We saw how privileged, generally white people treated my husband as an "Indian delivery boy". Yes, he was called a "delivery boy".

Most worryingly is this increasing trend of condemning "racism" in one breath and singling out "white people" in the other. This goes well beyond race as you're literally generalising people simply by the colour of this skin; "white supremacists...", "white nationalists...", "white privilege..." etc should be no more an acceptable generalisation than substituting that colour with any other colour or race.

Lets not buy into global political & media race baiting please...

All you needed to do was reference SJW and PC and you would have hit the apologist trifecta.

It's racism. It's not lynching or killing someone but it's blatant racism. I have no idea how anyone could say otherwise.

MikeB4

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#2202196 20-Mar-2019 07:58

Reading the article I can see both arguments here. There is present general ignorance and bad manners and racism.

I can relate to the racism being referred to in the article from what I have witnessed and experienced with my beautiful Grand Daughter. As an example we both went into a certain appliance store, she went to look at what she was interested in and went to look at my stuff. I noticed staff following her and watching her every move. I made a passing question of a staff member that I had noticed this and the reply was "oh we don't trust them" . I had put some expensive goods I was buying on my lap and went up to the counter, I called my Grand Daughter over, I wish I photographed the look on their faces, I dumped the gear on the counter and told them to shove it #$%^& *&^%^%^&. I have never been back.

I have had her coming to me in tears after being treated like this in shops etc. She has also been called terrible names and racially taunted. This cuts to her soul and to mine and it breaks my heart. She is a beautiful, intelligent teen who has never been in any trouble. To see her in tears over this sort of evil behaviour is gut wrenching and I admit to being in tears myself writting this.
So I see what the article is relating is both racism and ignorance. These are always in constant companionship.

Fred99

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#2202224 20-Mar-2019 09:13

solutionz:

No-one's denying or apologizing for racism.

You were. And now you've just written a monologue telling us all what a great person you really are, and double down on the wrong things you originally said.

ShinyChrome

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#2202239 20-Mar-2019 09:37

Coil:

Talking from experience. In the car dealership business; general rule is that workshop staff are not seen in the show rooms or sales areas.
I was in parts so I could have a pretty free roam but there were a lot of instances I saw peoples in the places they are not most convenient told to move on in a belittling way. Really depends on how much of a snowflake you want to be that day..

Ha! At the dealership I used to work for as a tech, we used to wander onto the sales floor all the time and make coffee in the customer lounge. It was a step above the automatic machines, and one of the other techs had a sideline as a cafe owner, so he taught us how make coffee properly. Although when I moved to a dealership in central Wellington, I probably wouldn't have tried that one.

Back on a topic, I think we do have a problem with racism embedded in our culture. I'll put my hand up and say I perpetuated that when I was younger and dumber, but I realize now how quick that talk becomes ingrained in behavior. And like other s***** world views, it is passed from the old to the young by the ignorant (and ignorance knows no race, social status, gender) and we need to break that cycle. I hope to be a parent one day and I intend to teach my kids to be better, kinder, happier people than me.

And as others have said there is also an element of class-ism there, even as the typically most privileged group (white male), I have had this before (typically from older, white men). Good on you @MikeB4 for not putting up with that sh**.

The problem with any of these behaviors is the tacit endorsement by sitting silent and not saying anything when we see this behavior happen to others, because we are too afraid to cause a scene or confront someone. We can do better NZ, and spread some peace and love dudes and dudesses.

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Handle9

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#2202513 20-Mar-2019 17:50

solutionz:

As mentioned in another thread having spend over a decade on the frontline of emergency services and having risked my life equally for people off all race, colour etc I resent what you're implying as it seems you haven't comprehended at all what I've said.

I wonder if this is because you assume I am "white" so you think it's ok to have a go? For what it's worth I'm actually Maori to the degree any other Maori is in NZ - but I do have fair skin so have experienced racism on both sides of the fence; my brother is also Maori to the same extent but with Chinese on the other side resulting in a lot darker skin than mine - he gets called Maori, Chinese, Indian and any other. And the obligatory; went to school in east Auckland - the most culturally diverse part of the country - family, friends, colleagues of all different "races".

I never said racism doesn't exist - and don't want to get into a "who has it worst". My point is singling out any specific colour or race is unhelpful to progress and only perpetuates the vitriol.

I'd also criticize the use of "Maori gangs", or "whatever state Terrorists". These are all generalising a large group of innocent people.

Why not just the terms "racists", neo-nazi's, terrorists, criminals, gangs or whatever where it ACTUALLY applies?? No need for "black...", "white...", "muslim..." this or that etc etc.

But back to this article what are the specific quotes you clearly attribute to racism? And why is it ok to single out certain coloured skinned people?

You may want to read it properly as the examples used and inferences drawn are that of the author.

e.g. "...husband did some food deliveries for a fellow business..." and was treated like an "Indian delivery boy". It doesn't say anything about being called that.

Also "Are they even allowed to buy coffee in here?" - was this really referring to him being Indian or him simply being a delivery driver? I've experienced similar things by ignorant people whilst being "on the job".

No-one's denying or apologizing for racism - it should be called out and prosecuted where it occurs - (not some vague broad-brush stirring in the media) but a realist can see no good comes from marginalising one group of people over the other.

If you resent it that is fine. I'm glad that it makes you uncomfortable as I don't find it easy writing it. It's a discussion that needs to be had.

To say that this sort of low level racism isn't prevalent in New Zealand is living in denial. I've seen it from my family and had it directed at my wife (who is very clearly Maori). "She's a Maori but she's really nice." That sort of crap. It's simple racism and should be called out. It happens all the time.

The reason why white people are mentioned more often than any other is there are more of us than anyone else and the majority of power held in our society is held by white men. These are simple facts.

When Islamic terrorists commit crimes then they get described as Islamic. Why should white people be any different? If we aren't willing to be honest around where is issues are we end up in a stituation where it is all someone elses problem.

The reason why I used the word apologist is pretty simple. You did a number of the classical things someone does when apologising for someones bad behaviour - you deflected it, you explained it in a way that was possible but far less likely and you cast doubt on the person making the complaint. You also used a dog whistle around the global media.

Given that none of us were there and couldn't see or hear what was said (and just as importantly how it was said) we have to make a judgement. Is it most likely that what Bhosale said was low level racism? Yeah I think so. Some of it will be unconcious but some is pretty overt. It's there and we have a choice on whether we do something about it or just accept it.

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#2202608 20-Mar-2019 20:46

solutionz:
Fred99:

solutionz:

No-one's denying or apologizing for racism.

You were. And now you've just written a monologue telling us all what a great person you really are, and double down on the wrong things you originally said.

Don't you see that's a pretty dangerous line of reasoning? That apparently YOU can tell ME exactly what I originally meant (dispute any clarification) - but not a chance that might YOU have been mistaken?

Easy for a keyboard warrior to point fingers and judge those who actually have dedicated their lives to community service, justice etc but perhaps you're just trolling.
You've ignored the arguments and continue to attack the person.

Not at all. You've demonstrated remarkable ignorance of the issue, unbelievable lack of self-awareness, yet an arrogant air of superiority suggestive of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

You're doing whatever you can to convince others it's exaggerated - or "it can't be true". It damned well is true, and your response is shameful.

Fred99

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#2202612 20-Mar-2019 20:51

Handle9:

All you needed to do was reference SJW and PC and you would have hit the apologist trifecta.

It's racism. It's not lynching or killing someone but it's blatant racism. I have no idea how anyone could say otherwise.

Thank you.

You forgot "I'm not a racist but..."

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#2203272 22-Mar-2019 11:26

This thread seems to be a good example as to why a helpful discussion about latent racism never seems to go anywhere.

I feel like the point that @solutionz was trying to make was that, perhaps, sometimes things that can be interpreted as racist don't always have racist motivations behind them. Perhaps @solutionz is erring too far to the side of "let's give them the benefit of the doubt", but the way he was attacked and shutdown for his opinion was unnecessary in my opinion.

Do I agree with everything he said? No. Can I see the point he was wanting to make? I think so.

I thought long and hard if I should post in this thread for fear of being vilified as racist (or an apologist for racism) for saying anything that may not 100% agree with some of the more vocal Geekzoners. In itself that makes me wonder how a meaningful discussion can ever happen when there can be so much fear about simply having the discussion.

It's easy (and proper) to outright condemn obvious racism, but for real change to happen we need to be able to discuss the the far more prevalent latent and sub-conscious racism.

Tracer

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#2203326 22-Mar-2019 12:38

solutionz:

I think we have to be careful not to conflate racism with class-ism, elitism, general discrimination and nastiness of which we all face - probably on a daily basis.

I see where you're coming from, but I think both are as inexcusable as each other regardless of where you draw the line between them. In this case it falls well into the racism category IMO.

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#2203382 22-Mar-2019 14:12

Paul1977:

[snip]

It's easy (and proper) to outright condemn obvious racism, but for real change to happen we need to be able to discuss the the far more prevalent latent and sub-conscious racism.

This is why the work over the last few years on implicit bias is so interesting and important; I'm sure, many of the defenders of the faith will claim the concept as namby-pamby, pinko commo, liberal PC-gone-mad fake news, but hopefully the rest of us may learn something from this work, and hopefully even think about one's own implicit (and explicit) biases.

I've posted here before that, as a generalisation, NZers are not particularly big on critical reflection, whether at the collective or individual level; perhaps the Chch massacre will help to change this, even if only slightly.

If interested, some of the researchers into implicit bias have created an online 'test' - https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

While there is so much else out there on implicit bias, NPR in the US have produced a number of fascinating programmes on the topic; links to these from https://www.npr.org/tags/420563828/implicit-bias

gzt

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#2203387 22-Mar-2019 14:22

Paul1977: This thread seems to be a good example as to why a helpful discussion about latent racism never seems to go anywhere.

Probably because the OP was not particularly clear about the the intention for the discussion. TFA is an article post with zero commentary from the OP.

Fred99

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#2203414 22-Mar-2019 15:23

Paul1977:

This thread seems to be a good example as to why a helpful discussion about latent racism never seems to go anywhere.

I feel like the point that @solutionz was trying to make was that, perhaps, sometimes things that can be interpreted as racist don't always have racist motivations behind them. Perhaps @solutionz is erring too far to the side of "let's give them the benefit of the doubt", but the way he was attacked and shutdown for his opinion was unnecessary in my opinion.

Do I agree with everything he said? No. Can I see the point he was wanting to make? I think so.

I thought long and hard if I should post in this thread for fear of being vilified as racist (or an apologist for racism) for saying anything that may not 100% agree with some of the more vocal Geekzoners. In itself that makes me wonder how a meaningful discussion can ever happen when there can be so much fear about simply having the discussion.

It's easy (and proper) to outright condemn obvious racism, but for real change to happen we need to be able to discuss the the far more prevalent latent and sub-conscious racism.

Too damned right you'd be vilified if you said something racist.

But get one thing very clear, the poster was presented with a news article written by a person who'd witnessed racism against a loved one where, in her opinion, the racism was directed at her husband was "generally from privileged white people". Well - knock me down with a feather.

The response was, to paraphrase; that it's really not fair to single out white people, and that the woman who wrote the article must be telling fibs and that poster didn't seem to believe it. Damned inappropriate things to say - bordering on identitarian alt right ideologically driven knee-jerkism. Better to STFU and say nothing at all.

Then doubled down on that abject BS way of thinking.

So tell me, on a thread about racism, blatant / casual, at what point would you draw the line and "do the right thing".

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