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# 251746 9-Jul-2019 18:21
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Pulling comments from EV news thread

It was suggested politics may be more appropriate.

Also to make it easier to read, given that it's not till December 2021, if at all.

Note that vehicles over $80,000 do not get discounts.

Use the official on-line survey https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/RY36HYM

Or https://transport.cwp.govt.nz/clean-cars/

Or email the pdf or word document to cleancars@transport.govt.nz

Consultation document
...The first policy is the Clean Car Standard (which is a vehicle fuel efficiency standard). This policy would require vehicle importers to bring in progressively more fuel efficient and electric vehicles.

The second policy is the Clean Car Discount (which is a feebate scheme). This policy would make fuel efficient and electric vehicles more affordable for Kiwis to buy, potentially by a discount of up to $8000 for new vehicles and $2,600 on used vehicles.

The Clean Car Standard and Clean Car Discount would help us to significantly reduce the emissions from transport, and also result in fuel savings for motorists.

...The Ministry’s preliminary cost-benefit analysis of the proposed clean car standard indicates that it has a benefit-cost ratio of 3:1 and a net present value of $2.4 billion. That is, for every $1 of costs it would provide $3 in benefits. The largest share of the benefits comes from reduced transport costs to households.

...The Clean Car Standard should help to significantly reduce transport costs to households.

...When the Australian Government investigated a 105 gram CO2/km emissions target for its vehicle fleet, they estimated that the target could impose additional vehicle costs. These were estimated to be, on average, $747 for a new conventional vehicle in 2021 and $1,582 in 2025. The cost premiums for suppliers to provide EVs and hybrids could be $9,482 in 2021 and $7,548 in 2025

These cost estimates are likely to overstate what will be experienced here. This is because they only relate to new vehicles. Some commentators also predict that EVs will reach price parity with conventional vehicles sooner than the Australian estimates imply. If these costs were to eventuate and be passed on to consumers, officials estimate that lifetime fuel savings could, on average, outweigh the costs by a factor of around three to one.

The Ministry of Transport’s Social Impact Analysis suggests that households would, on average, be significantly better off as a result of the Clean Car Standard. The Ministry estimates that the increased supply of fuel efficient and electric vehicles could result in average fuel savings of $6,800 to a vehicle owner over the life of a vehicle. This means the country could save about $3.4 billion on fuel over the life of the vehicles affected by the standard.

...The Clean Car Discount will be timed to replace the exemption from road user charges that applies to electric vehicles. For light vehicles the exemption applies until December 2021, or until they make up 2 percent of the light vehicle fleet.


https://transport.govt.nz/multi-modal/climatechange/electric-vehicles/clean-cars/

Govt proposing to make clean cars cheaper to tackle climate change, by Hon Julie Anne Genter
The Government is proposing to make electric, hybrid and fuel efficient vehicles more affordable so New Zealand families can choose a vehicle that’s better for the climate and their back pocket.

“The cars, utes and vans we use every day are also the fastest growing source of harmful climate pollution and account for nearly 70 percent of our transport emissions,” said Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter.

“Most Kiwis want to buy a car that’s good for the environment, but tell us the upfront cost and limited choice makes it a challenge.

“This is about making cleaner cars a realistic choice for more New Zealanders – by reducing the upfront cost of electric, hybrid and fuel efficient vehicles when sold in New Zealand for the first time.

“Discounts will be financed in the fairest way possibly - by putting a small fee on the highest polluting vehicles when they’re sold in New Zealand for the first time. This means people will still have choice, while contributing to the task of cleaning up the vehicles coming into New Zealand.

“New Zealanders have also told us they want more climate-friendly vehicles to choose from, so we’re also proposing that vehicle suppliers be required to import more fuel-efficient vehicles every year.

“Vehicles already registered in New Zealand would be exempt from these policies when on-sold in the second hand market – so more than 70 percent of vehicles sold each year won’t be affected by these proposals.

“These changes would prevent more than 5 million tonnes of dangerous climate pollution going into our atmosphere and would make a major contribution to meeting New Zealand’s climate targets.

“The benefits of these policies would flow on into the second hand market as more fuel efficient hybrid and electric vehicles are sold on.

“These policies are expected to save the country more than $3.4 billion in fuel and result in fuel savings of more than $6,800 over the lifetime of an average vehicle”.

...Vehicles with a retail price of $80,000 or more would not be eligible for discounts. This cut off is to prevent the scheme transferring wealth to New Zealanders who are able to buy vehicles that cost $80,000 or more. All vehicles with high-emissions would incur fees irrespective of their retail price



wellygary
the kicker is that the RUC Exemption is removed ,

So if the feebate is cost neutral across imports , this scheme is basically a reduction in the subsidy from government for EV users

GV27
People buying new cars definitely need subsidies that are more generous than in any other country, yep, absolutely. Won't someone think of old mate dropping $200K on a Model S? Bloke will basically be on skid row unless we get him $8k of taxpayer cash.

tdgeek
I just skimmed it now, its based on emissions not just EV's. Low to medium priced EV's get a better return, zero for Tesla, Kona priced EV's. Yes RUC is removed as it wasnt successful

I dont see how its free for taxpayers, if you need a larger car or are a tradie, get the chequebook out. It will help emissions though as it will push many to the smallest car they can manage, and help turn over older cars. Which this morning have halved in price as they are for the scrap heap, but that did need to happen.

This is an emissions goal not an EV move.

GV27
There are more effective ways of doing this; e.g. cash for clunkers, rebates that are attached to the age/emissions profile of whatever you trade in, sliding scales or even just an outright cap on the vehicle values that qualify for the subsidy.

wellygary
The incentives Stop at 80K , although my worry is that it will basically kill Ev sales in 2020 while people wait , also there is a ramp down , which is going to push sales into the early years of the scheme

Ge0rge
Weren't they talking about banning the Suzuki Swift EV because of safety issues? Now there's talk of a subsidy for buying them in?

tdgeek
Its 2020 in 5 months, 2021 in 17 months. Right now there are few models of EV's you can pay and drive away, so there are waiting lists. By 2021 there should be a nice range here, so maybe the timing is about right. Some in this thread, while stating the virtues of emissions, are happy to wait, for a subsidy, and so it seems a bit disjointed at the moment. I'm looking for a new car, a new EV is hard to justify, these subsidies don't change that. Maybe look at a new PHEV? Maybe an older EV? Although I want new not older. I will probably get an older Leaf for the sole purpose of an extra car just for golf

A settling in period right now might be a good thing

Aredwood
Except that it will also give subsidies for smaller ICE cars. So it is incredibly stupid paying subsidies to buy ICE cars. But some EV models not getting any subsidy.

And if you need a car with 7 seats, looks like nothing will get the subsidy. Yet another thing that will hurt Maori and Pacific Islanders the most.

The claimed emissions savings are unlikely to be achieved with what they have proposed anyway. As someone buying a little ICE car is not going to reduce their emissions much (and in some cases the new car may have higher carbon emissions than the old car) if their previous car was also a little ICE car.

tdgeek
This would be compelling https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/102727088/dont-diss-the-hybrid-says-toyota-as-it-launches-new-plugin-prius-prime?rm=a

At 48k and a price reduction coming, plus I assume a 6k subsidy, it might be a $40k commuter EV

kingdragonfly
https://www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/686/what-self-charging-hybrid
Self-charging hybrids usually employ one or more electric motors to aid the performance of a car’s petrol or diesel engine.

Once the battery has acquired enough charge, a self-charging hybrid can use this additional energy to help the car gain speed, reducing the burden on the internal-combustion engine.

This has the effect of saving fuel, therefore improving fuel economy on typical journeys through towns and cities.

Most self-charging hybrids are also capable of moving under electric power alone for short distances, which is useful in slow-moving traffic and during manoeuvres like parallel parking. As well as conserving fuel, self-charging hybrids will reduce CO2 emissions, making them better for the environment.

Self-charging hybrids are so-named because you can't charge the battery externally: all the energy is harvested from either the engine, the brakes, or merely the act of slowing down.
...
While self-charging hybrids are likely to be a better prospect for some drivers than plug-in hybrids, it’s important to remember that they bring no efficiency benefits at motorway speeds. On fast roads, you're entirely reliant on the internal combustion engine, and if you travel cross-country a lot, then a pure petrol or diesel will be more suitable.

Because of their small batteries, self-charging hybrids can’t travel very far on electric power alone; usually no more than a mile or so. So if you frequently drive short distances and you can charge a car at home or at work, a plug-in hybrid might be a more cost-effective option. Not only will you save money by travelling on electric power rather than petrol or diesel, you’ll still have the option of driving further afield using conventional fuel should the need arise.

Finally, self-charging hybrids are unlikely to suit driving enthusiasts. Most self-charging hybrids are designed to save fuel and make driving a relaxing and pleasant experience, as opposed to an exciting or involving one.

tdgeek
Me too. Its a pity that the premium well exceeds any costs savings

With Hybrids, apparently the battery degrades faster than an EV. But if your main mileage is commuting a hybrid can work out as they are cheap. Latest Prius might be 40k all up with subsidy. 65km range, top up at home, back to work tomorrow, etc

afe66
Self charging ev are just ICE to me.

Unless I can plug in and charge the battery it's not an EV.

If you mist burn fossil fuel you use it's an ICE.

Linuxluver
The feebate scheme proposed is open to feedback from the public. So let's do it. It's also taking effect after the next election. If we have a Labour Green government with a comfortable majority,,, we might see some changes to the scheme. At this point, anyone who cares about climate change simply can't vote for National. It's like an IQ test for NZ

Aredwood
Remind me, which party introduced the RUC exemption for EVs?

Linuxluver
National did it. Good on them. Put alongside everything else they did, it's not big enough. They also increased speed limits on some roads and *increased* emissions. They had a plan they bottom-drawered as it was always "too soon" to do anything significant. That was while Obama was in the White House. All the indications I've seen from National *voters* is that with Trump in the White House they are now free to return to calling climate change a hoax.

Guilliman
For me the hybrid option was a consideration that I ultimately discarded in favour of an FEV. I would have loved a Tesla but couldn't see myself paying that much, model 3 wasn't out at the time. Even then now it's still on the high side for me [base model is $74k NZ?].

Rightly or wrongly, when I looked into it further I considered the possibility that a hybrid would be more complex and therefore servicing and repair costs could be unpleasant. Also, with my current work commute I'd still be using petrol, I like it that I don't need to now for environmental as well as economic reasons.

Linuxluver
Cars over $80k don't qualify for the rebate.

GV27
I haven't had time to fully go through the announcement yet, but that's a logical thing to do.

I'm also not sure how it would apply if I imported my own ZEV.

Dingbatt
As I've commented multiple threads, a HYBRID is not an EV (look up the meaning of hybrid) If people don't know where their vehicle ultimately gets its motive energy from then they deserve all they (don't) get. Self Charging is a bs marketing construct that the PR department of Toyota/Lexus dreamed up that has been adopted by other Full Hybrid manufacturers.

I find it a little perplexing that the 'save the planet brigade' have a problem with a scheme that incentivises reduced emission vehicles (hybrids) as well as EVs. It can't all be done at once.

wellygary
It wouldn't apply,

The proposal is to make the point of application at the NZ "point of purchase" , either by the dealer or the importer.....

With a private import there is no NZ based purchase, you are purchasing it from a seller overseas...

GV27
Tres unhelpful. Waiving GST would have been far more useful.

wellygary
Removing GST was one of the policies specifically rejected, this is the list of ideas they rejected ( from the cabinet paper)

34.1. Varying annual vehicle licensing fees based on their CO2 emissions

34.2. Air pollutant emissions testing as part of Warrant of Fitness checks

34.3. Mandating a certain proportion of vehicle sale to be low emission

34.4. A fringe benefit tax exemption for electric vehicles

34.5. A GST exemption for electric vehicles

34.6. Increased depreciation rates for electric vehicles

34.7. An upfront subsidy of $1000-$2000 for electric vehicles12

34.8. A legislated end date for the import of fossil-fuelled vehicles.

Dingbatt
So, in effect, they are entering this with one hand and four of their five digits on the other tied behind their back.

Once again it will be a talk big, achieve little, policy.

My hybrid will have it’s trade-in value depressed and our ICE’s trade-in value inflated by virtue of rebate/tax on their respective new models.

All it has achieved is me moving my EV purchase from later this year to at least two years in the future.

SaltyNZ
Just applying it at first registration would have been more useful. Then it applies no matter how the car arrives in the country.

tdgeek
Its supposed to be taxpayer neutral. Probably easier to keep GST out of it and simplify the discount and collections. What happens when collections fade? I assume they tell everyone that as taxable ICE's have dropped off the market, job done?

SaltyNZ
Yeah I think that's pretty much the plan. Once EVs have reached price parity with ICE cars, gradually remove the subsidy. (But keep the fee for ICE, IMHO, and use it to pay for more fast charging stations).

paulchinnz
Alternatively could expand the range of taxable ICEs as by then there may be EVs to fulfil currently unmet requirements e.g. heavy trucks

tdgeek
I cant see price parity for a long while. They need to recover R+D, but if they are smart and they have production capacity, they can stretch out R+D recovery per unit to boost sales. Thats governed by what they can produce. As Paul below mentioned, if EV capability exists in NZ for any given car capability, its sensible to punitively tax it. I.e. if you want a 3 litre 5 door and there is an EV, tax the ICE to support the EV. We are a way off that yet


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  # 2272635 9-Jul-2019 20:50
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Removing the RUC subsidy (without reforming how road use is taxed/charged for) is actually a very bad thing. (In addition to what I have already said). As a Toyota Prius C (also called Toyota Aqua), will pay less road taxes than an EV. Yet the Prius will have higher carbon emissions. (will the plug in version of the Prius have to pay RUC?)

 

So the changes as proposed will actually be a negative carbon tax. Due to usage scenarios where some ICE cars will pay less taxes than EVs. In effect - paying people to emit carbon. And you will even get a purchase subsidy to buy that Prius.

 

Also very ironic, is that Toyota don't even make EVs, but they have the largest range of hybrid models available. So they will be the biggest benefactors of the policy as proposed.

 

The RUC system needs to be reformed anyway. As eventually EVs would need to be charged some sort of road taxes. The government needs to make RUC apply to all vehicles (regardless of fuel type, EV or not etc). As there are just too many issues otherwise of people making choices that are bad for the environment, but they get a tax benefit for doing so.

 

There should be no subsidy on any vehicle that is not an EV. And if a purchase price subsidy has to be paid, It should be paid for all EV purchases. Although I don't really agree with someone buying a Tesla for $200K getting a subsidy. If it helps get more EVs sold, those expensive new EVs will trickle down in the secondhand market. And there would still be an environmental benefit, If a rich person buys a Tesla Model X, rather than a Mercedes S class sedan (as an example). And there is also an indirect benefit of making EVs more desirable to own (as everyone would then see rich and successful people owning EVs, so they will also aspire to own an EV).






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  # 2272733 10-Jul-2019 07:27
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To those who say that RUC is going to ruin the economics of running an EV. I ask how else are we going to pay for the roads and their associated maintenance in a pure EV world? Increase taxes on electricity? Toll roads (basically an RUC with millions having to be spent on infrastructure to monitor it). Registration costs go up by $200 to $300 or more a year? (Unfair for some who only drives 10000km a year, very fair for me whose commute is over 30,000km a year)

People who have been driving diesel cars for years have been complaining about the fact the charges for a car under 2000kg shouldn’t be taxed the same as a vehicle between 2001kg and 3500kg. But no one cared.

It’s the easiest and cheapest system to implement and if you bought an EV believing you would never be charged RUC you are a real naïf. Time to change RUC was about 15 years ago when it was reviewed and no one cared then, why should they now when it has become a cash cow for NZTA?

Buy an EV in the next couple of years? Do the maths, I have and with RUC and petrol engines coming more efficient has shown that the cheapest running cost for my use is a petrol.


 
 
 
 


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  # 2272743 10-Jul-2019 07:51
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Aredwood:

 

Removing the RUC subsidy (without reforming how road use is taxed/charged for) is actually a very bad thing. (In addition to what I have already said). As a Toyota Prius C (also called Toyota Aqua), will pay less road taxes than an EV. Yet the Prius will have higher carbon emissions. (will the plug in version of the Prius have to pay RUC?)

 

So the changes as proposed will actually be a negative carbon tax. Due to usage scenarios where some ICE cars will pay less taxes than EVs. In effect - paying people to emit carbon. And you will even get a purchase subsidy to buy that Prius.

 

Also very ironic, is that Toyota don't even make EVs, but they have the largest range of hybrid models available. So they will be the biggest benefactors of the policy as proposed.

 

The RUC system needs to be reformed anyway. As eventually EVs would need to be charged some sort of road taxes. The government needs to make RUC apply to all vehicles (regardless of fuel type, EV or not etc). As there are just too many issues otherwise of people making choices that are bad for the environment, but they get a tax benefit for doing so.

 

There should be no subsidy on any vehicle that is not an EV. And if a purchase price subsidy has to be paid, It should be paid for all EV purchases. Although I don't really agree with someone buying a Tesla for $200K getting a subsidy. If it helps get more EVs sold, those expensive new EVs will trickle down in the secondhand market. And there would still be an environmental benefit, If a rich person buys a Tesla Model X, rather than a Mercedes S class sedan (as an example). And there is also an indirect benefit of making EVs more desirable to own (as everyone would then see rich and successful people owning EVs, so they will also aspire to own an EV).

 

 

 

 

I think that pretty much sums up my point of view, although I think there should still be some subsidy on the most economical of the hybrids. We do have to accept the reality that there are some people for which an EV is still not appropriate, and we would rather they buy a hybrid than not.

 

I would add as I have been quoted above that the subsidies should be applied at first registration rather than first purchase because that then applies no matter how the vehicle arrived in New Zealand and could even allow for subsidies for conversions.





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  # 2272817 10-Jul-2019 09:32
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Aredwood:

 

There should be no subsidy on any vehicle that is not an EV. And if a purchase price subsidy has to be paid, It should be paid for all EV purchases. Although I don't really agree with someone buying a Tesla for $200K getting a subsidy. If it helps get more EVs sold, those expensive new EVs will trickle down in the secondhand market. And there would still be an environmental benefit, If a rich person buys a Tesla Model X, rather than a Mercedes S class sedan (as an example). And there is also an indirect benefit of making EVs more desirable to own (as everyone would then see rich and successful people owning EVs, so they will also aspire to own an EV).

 

 

The problem is though, that $8K subsidy could be the difference between someone buying an EV or not at the lower end. It is much less likely to be the difference between someone buying a $200K car. There's a legitimate question of equitable outcomes here if you're going to be taking money from people buying less efficient cars at the lower end to give to people who can afford to buy and EV, subsidy or no subsidy. 


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  # 2273771 10-Jul-2019 10:08
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Aredwood:

 

Removing the RUC subsidy (without reforming how road use is taxed/charged for) is actually a very bad thing. (In addition to what I have already said). As a Toyota Prius C (also called Toyota Aqua), will pay less road taxes than an EV. Yet the Prius will have higher carbon emissions. (will the plug in version of the Prius have to pay RUC?)

 

So the changes as proposed will actually be a negative carbon tax. Due to usage scenarios where some ICE cars will pay less taxes than EVs. In effect - paying people to emit carbon. And you will even get a purchase subsidy to buy that Prius.

 

Also very ironic, is that Toyota don't even make EVs, but they have the largest range of hybrid models available. So they will be the biggest benefactors of the policy as proposed.

 

The RUC system needs to be reformed anyway. As eventually EVs would need to be charged some sort of road taxes. The government needs to make RUC apply to all vehicles (regardless of fuel type, EV or not etc). As there are just too many issues otherwise of people making choices that are bad for the environment, but they get a tax benefit for doing so.

 

There should be no subsidy on any vehicle that is not an EV. And if a purchase price subsidy has to be paid, It should be paid for all EV purchases. Although I don't really agree with someone buying a Tesla for $200K getting a subsidy. If it helps get more EVs sold, those expensive new EVs will trickle down in the secondhand market. And there would still be an environmental benefit, If a rich person buys a Tesla Model X, rather than a Mercedes S class sedan (as an example). And there is also an indirect benefit of making EVs more desirable to own (as everyone would then see rich and successful people owning EVs, so they will also aspire to own an EV).

 

 

My RUC ideas are:

 

Circle colour sticker on the windshield, press that button on the till, no tax. So, now EV and hybrids are RUC free. Do an A/P to pay RUC. Or pay manually as we do now. Login if you wish to NZTA, type in  mileage so you can see where your RUC fees, less whats already paid is at. Most of us will soon get a feel for what we incur, so a weekly A/P would tidy most of that up, add a tickle more, so no WOF surprises. But yes, maybe not force link it to WOF. Maybe force people ahead to keep it current? Or a wireless hubodometer that will bill your card every week?

 

I dont have an issue with lower emissions subsidy. We cant replace all ICE's right now, so lets push for better ICE's




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  # 2273808 10-Jul-2019 11:00
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At least the BMW mini isn't carbon fiber. That made repairs difficult in New Zealand.

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  # 2273815 10-Jul-2019 11:07
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kingdragonfly: At least the BMW mini isn't carbon fiber. That made repairs difficult in New Zealand.

 

Carbon fibre is quite ironic. Capture the emissions and use them for cars! Priceless!


 
 
 
 




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  # 2274571 11-Jul-2019 12:01
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Here's is a good article. The author did leave out maintenance costs, like oil changes, though.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/114135887/lets-not-be-fundamentalist-about-feebates-and-ev-ownership

Let's not be fundamentalist about feebates and EV ownership

By David Linklater

Doesn't take much to shine the light back on electric vehicles (EVs), does it?

The Government's proposal for a "feebate" to tax thirsty cars and use the money to subsidise clean ones got us all talking about EVs. Again.

The prospect of an $8000 saving on a brand-new EV is tempting. Getting it from people burning too much fossil fuel is even more appealing.

But let's take a bit of a reality check. There aren't that many EVs to choose from in NZ (or indeed globally) and the cheapest is currently $60k.

There will indeed be more by the time the proposed feebate comes into force into 2021 and almost certainly a few more affordable ones - but if you think the market will be awash with EV options you're dreaming.
...
That's the new-generation Nissan Leaf of course, which is now on sale in NZ for $59,990. It's not just a good price - it's a great package of relatively decent range with cutting-edge safety and driver-assistance equipment for the money.

What to compare it with? NZ's best-selling passenger car of course, the Toyota Corolla. Like the Leaf it's a small family hatchback. And let's face it, the Leaf is very much the Corolla of the EV world.

The Kiwi Leaf is extremely well-equipped so we'll need the top Corolla ZR at $37,490, which is also fully loaded. A typical feebate for a Corolla is $800, so let's call it $36,690.
...
It's not surprising that an EV has a much higher capital cost than a petrol car. So we start off $15,000 behind.
...
That's $27 to drive the Leaf 1000km, saving you roughly $100. So if you're worried about capital cost, it will take you 150,000km to recover the extra cost of a Leaf over a top-line Corolla. Without RUC.

If you're paying RUC, that's an extra $68 per 1000km, so it will cost you $95 per 1000km to run the Leaf. That brings your saving over the Corolla down to just $5. I'd call that price parity - or about three million km of driving to make up the difference.

Without RUC that's a $60 saving over the Corolla (250,000km to make up the difference). With RUC you've tipped just over the Corolla running cost, so you'll never make that [$15,000] difference back.

I love EVs and there are many reasons to run one other than cost: environmental, performance. And yes, petrol prices could go into the stratosphere (although there's no law to say power prices have to be stable).

But let's keep it in perspective is all I'm saying.

I think many of us may have missed the point about the consumer relevance of the feebate system. It's not designed to get everybody into EVs immediately (the cars won't exist to let that anyway), but rather to encourage people to buy the most fuel-efficient vehicle possible for their needs.

Even with a massive EV uptake, petrol cars are going to be around in our fleet for decades to come. So let's not be fundamentalist about the electric thing.

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  # 2274576 11-Jul-2019 12:07
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Nailed it. EV's are too expensive, like Solar PV the extra you pay, you never save enough. The premium is fake, its not the extra it costs to make, most of it is R+D. When they start making EV's in "normal" volume they can spread the R+D out over more cars, so it will  a much lower premium, then we can recalc this equation.


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  # 2274586 11-Jul-2019 12:27
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kingdragonfly:

 


If you're paying RUC, that's an extra $68 per 1000km, so it will cost you $95 per 1000km to run the Leaf. That brings your saving over the Corolla down to just $5.

 

...

But let's keep it in perspective is all I'm saying.

 

 

 

Indeed, and his perspective is backwards. We aren't trying to push people into EVs to save money, we're trying to save money to push people into EVs.

 

EV tailpipe CO2 emissions: 0g/1000km. Corolla ZR: 97kg/1000km. That's why you buy an EV. That's why you buy an EV even if it is only $5 cheaper than a Corolla, or even if it's $5 more expensive than a Corolla.

 

 





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  # 2275238 12-Jul-2019 12:07
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RUC's vs EV's:

 

empacher48: To those who say that RUC is going to ruin the economics of running an EV. I ask how else are we going to pay for the roads and their associated maintenance in a pure EV world? Increase taxes on electricity? Toll roads (basically an RUC with millions having to be spent on infrastructure to monitor it). Registration costs go up by $200 to $300 or more a year? (Unfair for some who only drives 10000km a year, very fair for me whose commute is over 30,000km a year)

 


People who have been driving diesel cars for years have been complaining about the fact the charges for a car under 2000kg shouldn’t be taxed the same as a vehicle between 2001kg and 3500kg. But no one cared.

It’s the easiest and cheapest system to implement and if you bought an EV believing you would never be charged RUC you are a real naïf. Time to change RUC was about 15 years ago when it was reviewed and no one cared then, why should they now when it has become a cash cow for NZTA?

Buy an EV in the next couple of years? Do the maths, I have and with RUC and petrol engines coming more efficient has shown that the cheapest running cost for my use is a petrol.

 

This touches on several issues.

 

No one is/should be saying EV's shouldn't fairly pay their way on the roads or that RUC is not the way to do it. The problem is that by design RUC is not truly a Road User Charge that recovers the fair cost of a particular vehicle using the road. According to both the AA and the intent of the original architects of the (adjusted) RUC changes, small vehicles are overcharged. Because road tax all goes into roads now and a disproportionate amount of tax is gathered from smaller vehicles, larger vehicles have less of the cost burden to carry and are consequently undercharged.

 

The explanation for the inequality is simple to explain - when Greens/Labour Govt changed it, the goal was to penalise the "Gas guzzling SUV" owners that were driving diesels for a fraction of the petrol equivalent costs. The weight-class contention was because they failed to make concession for the drivers of sensible, economic diesel cars, lumping a modest diesel corolla with the same charges as a delivery truck and what they saw an opulent and extravagantly unnecessary SUV.

 

This inequality is grossly unfair when you consider that EV's will be paying an excise tax designed specifically to discourage people from driving "gaz guzzling SUV's". This also means post 2021 EV's will be subsidising 16 litre Kenworth's which is not fair on drivers and not fair on the environment. By making heavy haulage artificially cheaper, you are encouraging inefficiency. By encouraging more long haul traffic you are creating the need for more roads that are not going to be fairly recouped via Road User Charges.

 

The second issue is that your thinking is typical of Kiwi thinking and exactly why road tax needs balancing - you (naturally) go for what is cheapest, not what is best of the country or your health, the economy, your neighbours, whales or penguins. The reason it is cheaper is because of the true cost obscured by taxes. Your argument seems to be "roll with it", where as the best answer is to not whip ourselves and to untwist the twisted taxes. 


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  # 2275827 13-Jul-2019 14:49
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I’m still unsure as to how the figure of $80000 was arrived at.
Was it because they decided that $8000 would be the maximum rebate and that is 10%?
Or did they look at the new electric vehicles on offer at the moment and discovered you can get the base model of the Kona, eNiro and Model 3 for under the cutoff, but if you want something better in those models (including getting all the safety features) then you are obviously rich and don’t need (deserve) any help.
Or is it pressure on the manufacturers to provide more models under that magic figure?

Personally I don’t think there should be an upper limit for BEVs. Since I am in the minority that pay the majority of tax in NZ, I would see the rebate as a reward for moving things along and putting up with the inconveniences associated with EV ownership.

Where I may differ from the EV zealots is that I can see the value in the rebates for hybrids. Even the full hybrids (non plugin) save fuel = less emissions. From my own experience when looking to buy the new RAV 4, the difference between the ICE and the Full Hybrid versions of pretty much all Toyota models is $3000-4000. So the rebate means you have to ask “why wouldn’t you go for the hybrid?” I drive a Toyota hybrid and am sold on the technology but I do wish they offered more of their models as plug-ins.




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  # 2276084 13-Jul-2019 20:39
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Dingbatt:

Where I may differ from the EV zealots is that I can see the value in the rebates for hybrids. Even the full hybrids (non plugin) save fuel = less emissions. From my own experience when looking to buy the new RAV 4, the difference between the ICE and the Full Hybrid versions of pretty much all Toyota models is $3000-4000.

 

 

 

I guess because if the answer is already "Why wouldn't you?" then an extra incentive isn't really required. If the difference is only $3000-$4000 then it would pay itself back pretty quickly anyway.





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  # 2276278 14-Jul-2019 12:21
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SaltyNZ:

Dingbatt:

Where I may differ from the EV zealots is that I can see the value in the rebates for hybrids. Even the full hybrids (non plugin) save fuel = less emissions. From my own experience when looking to buy the new RAV 4, the difference between the ICE and the Full Hybrid versions of pretty much all Toyota models is $3000-4000.


 


I guess because if the answer is already "Why wouldn't you?" then an extra incentive isn't really required. If the difference is only $3000-$4000 then it would pay itself back pretty quickly anyway.



But it’s not. The hybrid rebate achieves price parity in Toyota’s case. So no price difference = yeah, I’ll give it a go. And oh goodness, I’m only using half as much fuel!
I’m perhaps not the one who needs convincing. I fill the 60 litre tank of my Camry Hybrid once a month, when I creep along on electric, or am sitting at lights with nothing running, I’m thinking “Suckers!” to all the vehicles around me. While these particular feelings would be amplified in an EV, the feeling produced by a drained bank account would not.
I guess you’re either in the any change is beneficial camp, or the only total change is acceptable camp. (I’m in the former).




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  # 2278308 17-Jul-2019 14:14
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It was posted that only Electric Vehicles, "EV", could reach 105 gram CO2/km emissions target.

It should be noted that the UK is going for 75 gram CO2/km. Incentives are free access to the London Congestion Zone.

Full disclosure: some of these cars are over NZD $80,000 so wouldn't be subsidized, but the point is a big car can reach strciter goals.

https://www.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/fcb/new-car-fuel-consump.asp

So here's a list of the even stricter UK standard cars, that are not EV's

--------------------
Electricity / Petrol
--------------------
AUDI A3 Sportback e-tron 1.4
BMW 2 Series Active Tourer F45, 225xe
BMW 3 Series Saloon F30, 330e
BMW 3 Series Saloon F30, 330e
BMW 5 Series Saloon G30, 530e
BMW 7 Series Saloon G11, 740e
BMW 7 Series Saloon G12, 740Le
BMW i Series, i3 with Range Extender
BMW i Series, i8
HYUNDAI IONIQ PHEV
KIA Niro
KIA Optima Saloon PHEV
KIA Optima Sportswagon PHEV
MERCEDES-BENZ C-Class Estate, C 350 e
MERCEDES-BENZ C-Class Saloon, C 350 e
MERCEDES-BENZ E-Class Saloon, E 350 e
MERCEDES-BENZ S-Class Limousine, S 560 e
MINI Countryman F60
MITSUBISHI Outlander PHEV
TOYOTA Prius Plug-in
VOLKSWAGEN Golf GTE
VOLKSWAGEN Passat Estate Plug-In-Hybrid
VOLKSWAGEN Passat Saloon Plug-In-Hybrid
VOLVO S90, T8 Twin Engine
VOLVO V60, T8 Twin Engine
VOLVO V90, T8 Twin Engine
VOLVO XC60, T8 Twin Engine
VOLVO XC90, T8 Twin Engine
--------------------
Electricity / Diesel
--------------------
AUDI Q7 e-tron 3.0 TDI
VOLVO V60 D5 Twin Engine
VOLVO V60 D6 Twin Engine
--------------------
Petrol Hybrid
--------------------
LANDROVER Range Rover, 2.0L PHEV
PORSCHE Cayenne
PORSCHE Panamera
TOYOTA Prius
TOYOTA Yaris Hybrid

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