Talking of Tax/Healthcare/Student loans

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Forums › Finance and wealth management › Talking of Tax/Healthcare/Student loans - COME ON GOOGLE!

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MikeB4
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#1566900 7-Jun-2016 09:58

Geektastic:

mattwnz:

UHD:

I think an international corporation has the right to arrange its affairs in such a way as to minimise their tax burden within the law. This is the same as any of us shopping around to minimise the cost of a new smart phone or groceries.

Comparing Tax and shopping for a commodity like a phone, are two totally different things. NZers can't shop around for the best tax deal. You have to pay the IRD your tax, you can't say, well tax in Ireland is lower, so I will pay Irelands tax rate instead, because it is cheaper. Not only that but Ireland get the benefit of the money they get from the tax paid, and not NZ inc. I always think of the tax I pay, as my contribution to NZ inc, to keep it running. It is like insurance too, incase you need a helping hand by the sate for health or other needs. If everyone paid their fair share of tax, we wouldn't have the need for charities, life saving drugs would be funded, and education would likely all be funded, without the need to get a loan. Unfortunately a lot of NZs economy is now being funded by cheap debt, to overseas countries.

Comparing corporations and private citizens are also two totally different things....

Yep. I also believe that more can be gained for society in general by promoting and providing an environment that allows for corporate growth as opposed to increasing corporate tax.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

MikeB4

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#1566906 7-Jun-2016 10:06

mattwnz:
joker97: Why is our tax so high?

It could be lowered if everyone paid their fair share of taxes. I wonder if NZ reduced the company tax rate to slightly below Irelands, whether we could entice these overseas countries to based their headquarters for tax, in NZ. That could be a solution for NZ, but may annoy a lot of other countries.

Ireland has a debt greater than 200 Billion Euro and climbing which is around 123% of GDP. Hmmm not sure they are an example one should follow.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Fred99

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#1566912 7-Jun-2016 10:19

MikeB4:

mattwnz:
joker97: Why is our tax so high?

It could be lowered if everyone paid their fair share of taxes. I wonder if NZ reduced the company tax rate to slightly below Irelands, whether we could entice these overseas countries to based their headquarters for tax, in NZ. That could be a solution for NZ, but may annoy a lot of other countries.

Ireland has a debt greater than 200 Billion Euro and climbing which is around 123% of GDP. Hmmm not sure they are an example one should follow.

Perhaps an example that should be heeded.

Particularly WRT to the notion that a "soft landing" may not be the outcome when borrowing vast sums - in order to make a fortune by selling houses to each other.

Fred99

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#1566919 7-Jun-2016 10:24

MikeB4:

Geektastic:

mattwnz:

UHD:

I think an international corporation has the right to arrange its affairs in such a way as to minimise their tax burden within the law. This is the same as any of us shopping around to minimise the cost of a new smart phone or groceries.

Comparing Tax and shopping for a commodity like a phone, are two totally different things. NZers can't shop around for the best tax deal. You have to pay the IRD your tax, you can't say, well tax in Ireland is lower, so I will pay Irelands tax rate instead, because it is cheaper. Not only that but Ireland get the benefit of the money they get from the tax paid, and not NZ inc. I always think of the tax I pay, as my contribution to NZ inc, to keep it running. It is like insurance too, incase you need a helping hand by the sate for health or other needs. If everyone paid their fair share of tax, we wouldn't have the need for charities, life saving drugs would be funded, and education would likely all be funded, without the need to get a loan. Unfortunately a lot of NZs economy is now being funded by cheap debt, to overseas countries.

Comparing corporations and private citizens are also two totally different things....

Yep. I also believe that more can be gained for society in general by promoting and providing an environment that allows for corporate growth as opposed to increasing corporate tax.

The same can be said for personal income - promoting and providing an environment that allows for personal income growth etc...

Comparing corporations to private citizens is exactly what should be done.

Geektastic

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#1566937 7-Jun-2016 10:40

Fred99:

MikeB4:

Geektastic:

mattwnz:

UHD:

I think an international corporation has the right to arrange its affairs in such a way as to minimise their tax burden within the law. This is the same as any of us shopping around to minimise the cost of a new smart phone or groceries.

Comparing Tax and shopping for a commodity like a phone, are two totally different things. NZers can't shop around for the best tax deal. You have to pay the IRD your tax, you can't say, well tax in Ireland is lower, so I will pay Irelands tax rate instead, because it is cheaper. Not only that but Ireland get the benefit of the money they get from the tax paid, and not NZ inc. I always think of the tax I pay, as my contribution to NZ inc, to keep it running. It is like insurance too, incase you need a helping hand by the sate for health or other needs. If everyone paid their fair share of tax, we wouldn't have the need for charities, life saving drugs would be funded, and education would likely all be funded, without the need to get a loan. Unfortunately a lot of NZs economy is now being funded by cheap debt, to overseas countries.

Comparing corporations and private citizens are also two totally different things....

Yep. I also believe that more can be gained for society in general by promoting and providing an environment that allows for corporate growth as opposed to increasing corporate tax.

The same can be said for personal income - promoting and providing an environment that allows for personal income growth etc...

Comparing corporations to private citizens is exactly what should be done.

It's like comparing apples and oranges. One is legally a real person and one is not. One can be domiciled anywhere - and moved - with the stroke of a few keys and the other cannot.

They simply cannot be compared.

To reinforce an earlier point, companies do not pay tax: their customers pay tax since all their money comes from their customers. Increase company tax is quite likely to lead to an increase in the costs of goods to make up for it...

Fred99

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#1566962 7-Jun-2016 11:06

Geektastic:

Fred99:

MikeB4:

Geektastic:

mattwnz:

UHD:

I think an international corporation has the right to arrange its affairs in such a way as to minimise their tax burden within the law. This is the same as any of us shopping around to minimise the cost of a new smart phone or groceries.

Comparing Tax and shopping for a commodity like a phone, are two totally different things. NZers can't shop around for the best tax deal. You have to pay the IRD your tax, you can't say, well tax in Ireland is lower, so I will pay Irelands tax rate instead, because it is cheaper. Not only that but Ireland get the benefit of the money they get from the tax paid, and not NZ inc. I always think of the tax I pay, as my contribution to NZ inc, to keep it running. It is like insurance too, incase you need a helping hand by the sate for health or other needs. If everyone paid their fair share of tax, we wouldn't have the need for charities, life saving drugs would be funded, and education would likely all be funded, without the need to get a loan. Unfortunately a lot of NZs economy is now being funded by cheap debt, to overseas countries.

Comparing corporations and private citizens are also two totally different things....

Yep. I also believe that more can be gained for society in general by promoting and providing an environment that allows for corporate growth as opposed to increasing corporate tax.

The same can be said for personal income - promoting and providing an environment that allows for personal income growth etc...

Comparing corporations to private citizens is exactly what should be done.

It's like comparing apples and oranges. One is legally a real person and one is not. One can be domiciled anywhere - and moved - with the stroke of a few keys and the other cannot.

They simply cannot be compared.

To reinforce an earlier point, companies do not pay tax: their customers pay tax since all their money comes from their customers. Increase company tax is quite likely to lead to an increase in the costs of goods to make up for it...

You've made my point.

They should be compared. The fact that they're "allowed" to shift nationality to suit is a loophole. Private citizens can and some do the same - but it's very difficult for ordinary folks, they might need to tell porkies where they're domiciled, but no real bother as prosecuting them for that requires proof which won't be forthcoming from where they've shifted income or assets.

Increase company tax will increase prices - yes sure it will, actually probably just drive manufacturers offshore. Increase personal tax will have the same effect, drive some earners offshore, and increase prices. Wage and salary earners might not be able to successfully "demand" higher wages to compensate, but plumbers and accountants will increase their charges.

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MikeB4

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#1567003 7-Jun-2016 11:47

Fred99:

You've made my point.

They should be compared. The fact that they're "allowed" to shift nationality to suit is a loophole. Private citizens can and some do the same - but it's very difficult for ordinary folks, they might need to tell porkies where they're domiciled, but no real bother as prosecuting them for that requires proof which won't be forthcoming from where they've shifted income or assets.

Increase company tax will increase prices - yes sure it will, actually probably just drive manufacturers offshore. Increase personal tax will have the same effect, drive some earners offshore, and increase prices. Wage and salary earners might not be able to successfully "demand" higher wages to compensate, but plumbers and accountants will increase their charges.

Increasing company taxation will not only increase prices it will reduce investment, increase unemployment, increase demand for Government services and ultimately increase personal taxation.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

BarTender

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#1567040 7-Jun-2016 12:36

MikeB4:

Fred99:

You've made my point.

They should be compared. The fact that they're "allowed" to shift nationality to suit is a loophole. Private citizens can and some do the same - but it's very difficult for ordinary folks, they might need to tell porkies where they're domiciled, but no real bother as prosecuting them for that requires proof which won't be forthcoming from where they've shifted income or assets.

Increase company tax will increase prices - yes sure it will, actually probably just drive manufacturers offshore. Increase personal tax will have the same effect, drive some earners offshore, and increase prices. Wage and salary earners might not be able to successfully "demand" higher wages to compensate, but plumbers and accountants will increase their charges.

Increasing company taxation will not only increase prices it will reduce investment, increase unemployment, increase demand for Government services and ultimately increase personal taxation.

I'm always surprised by this argument that with increased taxation it will reduce investment and increase unemployment. Facts don't seem to play into it.

http://cdn.tradingeconomics.com/embed/?s=nzlcorptax&v=201604041742n&d1=20060101&d2=20161231&title=false&url2=/new-zealand/unemployment-rate&h=300&w=600

UHD

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#1567238 7-Jun-2016 16:27

mattwnz:

UHD:

I think an international corporation has the right to arrange its affairs in such a way as to minimise their tax burden within the law. This is the same as any of us shopping around to minimise the cost of a new smart phone or groceries.

Comparing Tax and shopping for a commodity like a phone, are two totally different things. NZers can't shop around for the best tax deal. You have to pay the IRD your tax, you can't say, well tax in Ireland is lower, so I will pay Irelands tax rate instead, because it is cheaper. Not only that but Ireland get the benefit of the money they get from the tax paid, and not NZ inc. I always think of the tax I pay, as my contribution to NZ inc, to keep it running. It is like insurance too, incase you need a helping hand by the sate for health or other needs. If everyone paid their fair share of tax, we wouldn't have the need for charities, life saving drugs would be funded, and education would likely all be funded, without the need to get a loan. Unfortunately a lot of NZs economy is now being funded by cheap debt, to overseas countries.

Thinking laterally, the analogy works perfectly. Different grocery stores are the different countries, and the consumer is the international corporation. In this case, Google (originally a US corporation) has been able to arrange its affairs (shop around, so to speak) so that it benefits from Ireland's legal structures in the same way a shopper is able to benefit from a product offered at a lower price from a competing store.

If New Zealand wanted the tax dollars from multinational corporations (a contribution to NZ Inc. as you put it), it could very easily lower its company tax rate and make New Zealand more attractive but that is a far more complicated matter that our leaders do not currently believe would benefit New Zealand. Companies operating in New Zealand do pay taxes on their profits as any other company here does. No laws are broken, it is just that their affairs are arranged in such a way that the international corporation isn't unfairly burdened by tax that it might have to pay twice in many countries.

I can see you're moralising the issue and may accept you have a partial point there but if that is the sole problem then it is the responsibility of law makers and what the democracy wants. Write to your MP.

Geektastic

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#1567240 7-Jun-2016 16:28

Fred99:

Geektastic:

Fred99:

MikeB4:

Geektastic:

mattwnz:

UHD:

I think an international corporation has the right to arrange its affairs in such a way as to minimise their tax burden within the law. This is the same as any of us shopping around to minimise the cost of a new smart phone or groceries.

Comparing Tax and shopping for a commodity like a phone, are two totally different things. NZers can't shop around for the best tax deal. You have to pay the IRD your tax, you can't say, well tax in Ireland is lower, so I will pay Irelands tax rate instead, because it is cheaper. Not only that but Ireland get the benefit of the money they get from the tax paid, and not NZ inc. I always think of the tax I pay, as my contribution to NZ inc, to keep it running. It is like insurance too, incase you need a helping hand by the sate for health or other needs. If everyone paid their fair share of tax, we wouldn't have the need for charities, life saving drugs would be funded, and education would likely all be funded, without the need to get a loan. Unfortunately a lot of NZs economy is now being funded by cheap debt, to overseas countries.

Comparing corporations and private citizens are also two totally different things....

Yep. I also believe that more can be gained for society in general by promoting and providing an environment that allows for corporate growth as opposed to increasing corporate tax.

The same can be said for personal income - promoting and providing an environment that allows for personal income growth etc...

Comparing corporations to private citizens is exactly what should be done.

It's like comparing apples and oranges. One is legally a real person and one is not. One can be domiciled anywhere - and moved - with the stroke of a few keys and the other cannot.

They simply cannot be compared.

To reinforce an earlier point, companies do not pay tax: their customers pay tax since all their money comes from their customers. Increase company tax is quite likely to lead to an increase in the costs of goods to make up for it...

You've made my point.

They should be compared. The fact that they're "allowed" to shift nationality to suit is a loophole. Private citizens can and some do the same - but it's very difficult for ordinary folks, they might need to tell porkies where they're domiciled, but no real bother as prosecuting them for that requires proof which won't be forthcoming from where they've shifted income or assets.

Increase company tax will increase prices - yes sure it will, actually probably just drive manufacturers offshore. Increase personal tax will have the same effect, drive some earners offshore, and increase prices. Wage and salary earners might not be able to successfully "demand" higher wages to compensate, but plumbers and accountants will increase their charges.

It's not a loophole at all.

How can you stop something that exists only on paper from existing on paper somewhere else? Ultimately, you could wind up Company A and transfer assets to Company B somewhere else. You cannot stop it unless you come up with a way of re-ordering our entire way of doing business worldwide.

nathan

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#1567242 7-Jun-2016 16:31

And since NZ is a rounding error it's definitely possible services could be unavailable there since it's not worth these businesses time to supply if the rules are honerous

Also consider the PAYE the employee of these international businesses pay. Microsoft has over 200 local employees there.

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Fred99

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#1567251 7-Jun-2016 16:50

Geektastic:

Fred99:

Geektastic:

Fred99:

MikeB4:

Geektastic:

mattwnz:

UHD:

I think an international corporation has the right to arrange its affairs in such a way as to minimise their tax burden within the law. This is the same as any of us shopping around to minimise the cost of a new smart phone or groceries.

Comparing Tax and shopping for a commodity like a phone, are two totally different things. NZers can't shop around for the best tax deal. You have to pay the IRD your tax, you can't say, well tax in Ireland is lower, so I will pay Irelands tax rate instead, because it is cheaper. Not only that but Ireland get the benefit of the money they get from the tax paid, and not NZ inc. I always think of the tax I pay, as my contribution to NZ inc, to keep it running. It is like insurance too, incase you need a helping hand by the sate for health or other needs. If everyone paid their fair share of tax, we wouldn't have the need for charities, life saving drugs would be funded, and education would likely all be funded, without the need to get a loan. Unfortunately a lot of NZs economy is now being funded by cheap debt, to overseas countries.

Comparing corporations and private citizens are also two totally different things....

Yep. I also believe that more can be gained for society in general by promoting and providing an environment that allows for corporate growth as opposed to increasing corporate tax.

The same can be said for personal income - promoting and providing an environment that allows for personal income growth etc...

Comparing corporations to private citizens is exactly what should be done.

It's like comparing apples and oranges. One is legally a real person and one is not. One can be domiciled anywhere - and moved - with the stroke of a few keys and the other cannot.

They simply cannot be compared.

To reinforce an earlier point, companies do not pay tax: their customers pay tax since all their money comes from their customers. Increase company tax is quite likely to lead to an increase in the costs of goods to make up for it...

You've made my point.

They should be compared. The fact that they're "allowed" to shift nationality to suit is a loophole. Private citizens can and some do the same - but it's very difficult for ordinary folks, they might need to tell porkies where they're domiciled, but no real bother as prosecuting them for that requires proof which won't be forthcoming from where they've shifted income or assets.

Increase company tax will increase prices - yes sure it will, actually probably just drive manufacturers offshore. Increase personal tax will have the same effect, drive some earners offshore, and increase prices. Wage and salary earners might not be able to successfully "demand" higher wages to compensate, but plumbers and accountants will increase their charges.

It's not a loophole at all.

How can you stop something that exists only on paper from existing on paper somewhere else? Ultimately, you could wind up Company A and transfer assets to Company B somewhere else. You cannot stop it unless you come up with a way of re-ordering our entire way of doing business worldwide.

That's a damned good idea - it could be a free market rather than a market manipulated by government meddling in non-tariff trade barriers, tax policy, and currencies.

By the way, there are regulations prohibiting "profit shifting". The major NZ banks got pinged for doing that - and settled with Inland Revenue for billions in unpaid tax. The problem is that when it gets down to the small players, then assessing whether profit-shifting is going on via high transfer pricing, administration fees etc can be very difficult.

So again yes - it is a loophole, sometimes blatant evasion, and this need to be cleaned up. NZ can't do it alone - reform does need to be global.

nunz

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#1567301 7-Jun-2016 17:42

DaveB:

mentalinc:

Did you pay tax in the purchase?

Or are you asking them to increase the price 15%

I probably paid (minimal) tax in Ireland (for use of a service over here).

And yes, GST @15% based on purchases from this country is fair, but I have since recalled that this is coming in soon.

I just hope that, in time, the Govt will reign in these multi-national companies that avoid paying tax in their countries of operation. Don't you?

I had an enlightening discussion with customs today on imports.

Intellectual property = NO customs and excise or tax.
software = intellectual property = no charge
Anything delivered via the internet = intellectual property. = no charge

That means we are in the weird situation where a physical book valued at say $1000 will be charged $150 in GST plus $40-$80 in other customs fees but the same book delivered as an e-book gets charged nothing.

If software is sent to NZ on a CD, USB pendrive, harddrive etc and the docket makes no distinction between the IP and the medium it is on, then the whole price is chargeable but if the medium and the nominal work to package it, ship it, create it is charged / itemised separately to the software then you only pay fees and GST on the medium not the software.

So again, $5000 of say Adobe software

downloaded is free
charged all together as $5000 on the customs docket, delivered on DVD, costs $450 GST plus customs charges
Charged as $30 for the packaging, delivery, DVD media etc and the rest is IP / software then doesn't attract a cent of charge at customs as it is under the $60 charge limit.

But - hypocracy climbs in (old meaning of the term) a Stradivarius violin for example, valued at $100,000 is in reality a collection of $200 in wood and wire, and the rest is IP / intrinsic value. But - you cannot separate the IP / value from the physical item. You will be pinged for $15 000 in GST plus customs charges etc.

Similarly the book referenced above- the books IP and its medium are tied together physically so customs hits you for the lot.

Legislation is really really behind the times when it comes to this stuff.

Last thought:

If an overseas client buys $1000 off me, I charge them $1000 and charge NZers $1150 (incl)

If I bought the item back from the over seas client for $1000 the Govt would charge me $150 in GST so it would cost me more to buy my own stuff back from overseas. No wonder raw producers who ship overseas for secondary production and then bring it back in have bleedingly high costs. If the Govt flat taxed GST on all purchases including overseas, we would do a lot better in the tax take.

nunz

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#1567303 7-Jun-2016 17:54

Fred99:

Geektastic:

Fred99:

Geektastic:

Fred99:

MikeB4:

Geektastic:

mattwnz:

UHD:

I think an international corporation has the right to arrange its affairs in such a way as to minimise their tax burden within the law. This is the same as any of us shopping around to minimise the cost of a new smart phone or groceries.

Comparing Tax and shopping for a commodity like a phone, are two totally different things. NZers can't shop around for the best tax deal. You have to pay the IRD your tax, you can't say, well tax in Ireland is lower, so I will pay Irelands tax rate instead, because it is cheaper. Not only that but Ireland get the benefit of the money they get from the tax paid, and not NZ inc. I always think of the tax I pay, as my contribution to NZ inc, to keep it running. It is like insurance too, incase you need a helping hand by the sate for health or other needs. If everyone paid their fair share of tax, we wouldn't have the need for charities, life saving drugs would be funded, and education would likely all be funded, without the need to get a loan. Unfortunately a lot of NZs economy is now being funded by cheap debt, to overseas countries.

Comparing corporations and private citizens are also two totally different things....

Yep. I also believe that more can be gained for society in general by promoting and providing an environment that allows for corporate growth as opposed to increasing corporate tax.

The same can be said for personal income - promoting and providing an environment that allows for personal income growth etc...

Comparing corporations to private citizens is exactly what should be done.

It's like comparing apples and oranges. One is legally a real person and one is not. One can be domiciled anywhere - and moved - with the stroke of a few keys and the other cannot.

They simply cannot be compared.

To reinforce an earlier point, companies do not pay tax: their customers pay tax since all their money comes from their customers. Increase company tax is quite likely to lead to an increase in the costs of goods to make up for it...

You've made my point.

They should be compared. The fact that they're "allowed" to shift nationality to suit is a loophole. Private citizens can and some do the same - but it's very difficult for ordinary folks, they might need to tell porkies where they're domiciled, but no real bother as prosecuting them for that requires proof which won't be forthcoming from where they've shifted income or assets.

Increase company tax will increase prices - yes sure it will, actually probably just drive manufacturers offshore. Increase personal tax will have the same effect, drive some earners offshore, and increase prices. Wage and salary earners might not be able to successfully "demand" higher wages to compensate, but plumbers and accountants will increase their charges.

It's not a loophole at all.

How can you stop something that exists only on paper from existing on paper somewhere else? Ultimately, you could wind up Company A and transfer assets to Company B somewhere else. You cannot stop it unless you come up with a way of re-ordering our entire way of doing business worldwide.

That's a damned good idea - it could be a free market rather than a market manipulated by government meddling in non-tariff trade barriers, tax policy, and currencies.

By the way, there are regulations prohibiting "profit shifting". The major NZ banks got pinged for doing that - and settled with Inland Revenue for billions in unpaid tax. The problem is that when it gets down to the small players, then assessing whether profit-shifting is going on via high transfer pricing, administration fees etc can be very difficult.

So again yes - it is a loophole, sometimes blatant evasion, and this need to be cleaned up. NZ can't do it alone - reform does need to be global.

however, a company profits from assets and devaluing them (and yes I know tax credits are not profits but they are valuable) BUT if it then shifts the assets from Company A to B it has to account not only for those assets but the devaluation process as well to square it up.

Example. I buy a vehicle ( 10k) and straight line depreciate it at 21% per year. That's 2100 per year tax credits. After 4 years i have received $8400 of tax benefit from the depreciation. The vehicle is worth $1600 on the books. If i sell the vehicle from my company to company B, I am still on the hook for the difference in depreciation claimed and the actual transfer price of the vehicle. I still have to account for the $1600 of book value left to the IRD.

Similarly big companies cannot transfer assets they make tax claims on and use as tax right offs without dealing with the IRD. You are not allowed to make assets disappear.

BUT -if you sell your profit to the parent company as a 'franchise fee' or similar, you dont pay tax on the profit, you dont pay GST and you've shipped it all overseas. Putting a flat GST rate on everything would remove that option, as to make money you have to spend money and taxing the spending, that's good for the IRD.

Milk companies for instance - Owned by overseas, getting milk from farms owned by over seas and worked by overseas workers. Begger all for NZ in that but we keep sayings its good for the country. However rack up your GST, and everything you buy brings money into the NZ coffers, drop income tax and who cares how much they make ... its all in the GST.

sir1963

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#1567513 7-Jun-2016 21:56

joker97: Why is our tax so high?

Because roads, healthcare, education, etc etc etc etc cost money.

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