Talking of Tax/Healthcare/Student loans

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Forums › Finance and wealth management › Talking of Tax/Healthcare/Student loans - COME ON GOOGLE!

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#1568644 9-Jun-2016 13:02

ajobbins:

MikeB4: Superannuation is not a Welfare Benefit.

What is it then? It's a government transfer payment just like any other form of 'welfare benefit'

It is the Government pension, - welfare benefits are a separate issue.

Now for those that feel that it should be means tested, I wonder how many would support me if I was to say -

"OK, rather than draw my pension when eligible (in other words forgo it), I will continue to work rather than retire. But in return for losing my pension, I feel that I should no longer be eligible for income tax."

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#1568648 9-Jun-2016 13:05

DaveB:

ajobbins:

MikeB4: Superannuation is not a Welfare Benefit.

What is it then? It's a government transfer payment just like any other form of 'welfare benefit'

It is the Government pension, - welfare benefits are a separate issue.

Now for those that feel that it should be means tested, I wonder how many would support me if I was to say -

"OK, rather than draw my pension when eligible (in other words forgo it), I will continue to work rather than retire. But in return for losing my pension, I feel that I should no longer be eligible for income tax."

<cheek>I'ld hire you in a flash and reduce he amount I pay by about 19-33% depending on the wage level to keep you equitable with other workers. Cheap labour for me and you get a job. win win </cheek>

ajobbins

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#1568666 9-Jun-2016 13:43

MikeB4:
ajobbins:

MikeB4: Superannuation is not a Welfare Benefit.

What is it then? It's a government transfer payment just like any other form of 'welfare benefit'

Its a retirement payment in return for contributions.

This really irks me. Paying tax during your working life is NOT a saving scheme for retirement. You get a pension no matter how much or little you paid in 'contributions'. Age pensions are simply a way of the government ensuring that those who cannot support themselves (because they are not working) are looked after, like any other benefit. The fact it's no longer means tested is simply a feature of that particular transfer payment.

And it's unlikely that my the time I retire, despite the fact I pay a LOT of tax, that there will be a government pension scheme left. There will be no money left as those of retirement age now are going to suck out more money from the tax system than they ever put in throughout their lives.

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MikeAqua

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#1568667 9-Jun-2016 13:43

This problem exists because of differences in taxation between countries. Companies can manipulate by having overseas subsidiaries that earn the bulk of their profits in a country with a low tax rate and transfer net profits (which are untaxable) home.

For example let's assume an imaginary company called Widget USA that has subsidiaries in other countries.

To sell it's products in NZ the following happens.

Widget China manufactures.

Widget China sells at minimal margin to Widget International which is registered in Ireland.

Widget International sells to Widget NZ at a high margin (product is shipped direct from China to NZ).

Widget NZ sells products to NZ retailers at minimal margin.

In this chain the bulk of taxable profit is made in Ireland, which has very low company tax rate. Net profits can be transferred to Widget Co USA without any tax being payable in the USA because it has been paid in Ireland.

Mike

sir1963

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#1568668 9-Jun-2016 13:45

MikeB4:
ajobbins:

MikeB4: Superannuation is not a Welfare Benefit.

What is it then? It's a government transfer payment just like any other form of 'welfare benefit'

Its a retirement payment in return for contributions.

It has NEVER been that. The tax paid has always been to pay for the retirement payments of those currently collecting the superannuation benefit.

There has never been any money "put aside" for those who paid taxes.

People assume because they paid taxes they are entitled and there is money set aside for them, however that is NOT true, and never has been true.

The Pension is a welfare payment and should be treated the same as any other. If you are working, you are not retired, why should you get superannuation ?

Some people treat superannuation as a 2nd income, but while a "retired" person is taking up that job, an unemployed person is on the dole, so we are in effect paying 2 benefits.

If you are independently wealthy, again why should you get superannuation ?

Earn over $100 a week on any other benefit and it gets deducted dollar for dollar, why should the pension be any different ?

I am currently paying for retired peoples super in my taxes AND contributing to a pension fund.

Kiwisaver (i.e. pension saving scheme) was only introduced in 2007.

sir1963

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#1568676 9-Jun-2016 13:55

MikeAqua:

This problem exists because of differences in taxation between countries. Companies can manipulate by having overseas subsidiaries that earn the bulk of their profits in a country with a low tax rate and transfer net profits (which are untaxable) home.

For example let's assume an imaginary company called Widget USA that has subsidiaries in other countries.

To sell it's products in NZ the following happens.

Widget China manufactures.

Widget China sells at minimal margin to Widget International which is registered in Ireland.

Widget International sells to Widget NZ at a high margin (product is shipped direct from China to NZ).

Widget NZ sells products to NZ retailers at minimal margin.

In this chain the bulk of taxable profit is made in Ireland, which has very low company tax rate. Net profits can be transferred to Widget Co USA without any tax being payable in the USA because it has been paid in Ireland.

You missed some bits

Widget NZ also sends 90% and more of its profits to Ireland as a "licencing fee" to Widget International, so they only pay NZ taxes on small percentage of the profits they leave here.

Widget NZ is able to stop parallel imports so can add a higher margin, even more so if the TPPA is signed.

They LEAVE the money in Ireland because if they take it back into the USA they do pay full US taxes on it (no tax credits, the US is very backwards here). This is why Apple/Google etc want tax holidays so they can bring their overseas profits back to the US and not pay full taxes on it.

They also play silly buggers with the issuance of bonds where by they can raise money and tax deduct the costs without having to dip into their own funds

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MikeB4

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#1568677 9-Jun-2016 14:01

sir1963:

MikeB4:
ajobbins:

MikeB4: Superannuation is not a Welfare Benefit.

What is it then? It's a government transfer payment just like any other form of 'welfare benefit'

Its a retirement payment in return for contributions.

It has NEVER been that. The tax paid has always been to pay for the retirement payments of those currently collecting the superannuation benefit.

There has never been any money "put aside" for those who paid taxes.

People assume because they paid taxes they are entitled and there is money set aside for them, however that is NOT true, and never has been true.

The Pension is a welfare payment and should be treated the same as any other. If you are working, you are not retired, why should you get superannuation ?

Some people treat superannuation as a 2nd income, but while a "retired" person is taking up that job, an unemployed person is on the dole, so we are in effect paying 2 benefits.

If you are independently wealthy, again why should you get superannuation ?

Earn over $100 a week on any other benefit and it gets deducted dollar for dollar, why should the pension be any different ?

I am currently paying for retired peoples super in my taxes AND contributing to a pension fund.

Kiwisaver (i.e. pension saving scheme) was only introduced in 2007.

There was, many of the current recipients had a separate levy taken from their salaries for retirement pensions. This levy was eventually incorporated in the general taxation by the Muldoon Government. This is why it is difficult to change the current system until those persons are no longer in receipt.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

MikeB4

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#1568679 9-Jun-2016 14:02

ajobbins:

MikeB4:
ajobbins:

MikeB4: Superannuation is not a Welfare Benefit.

What is it then? It's a government transfer payment just like any other form of 'welfare benefit'

Its a retirement payment in return for contributions.

This really irks me. Paying tax during your working life is NOT a saving scheme for retirement. You get a pension no matter how much or little you paid in 'contributions'. Age pensions are simply a way of the government ensuring that those who cannot support themselves (because they are not working) are looked after, like any other benefit. The fact it's no longer means tested is simply a feature of that particular transfer payment.

And it's unlikely that my the time I retire, despite the fact I pay a LOT of tax, that there will be a government pension scheme left. There will be no money left as those of retirement age now are going to suck out more money from the tax system than they ever put in throughout their lives.

Learn some NZ history and you will see different,

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

sir1963

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#1568680 9-Jun-2016 14:02

DaveB:

ajobbins:

MikeB4: Superannuation is not a Welfare Benefit.

What is it then? It's a government transfer payment just like any other form of 'welfare benefit'

It is the Government pension, - welfare benefits are a separate issue.

Now for those that feel that it should be means tested, I wonder how many would support me if I was to say -

"OK, rather than draw my pension when eligible (in other words forgo it), I will continue to work rather than retire. But in return for losing my pension, I feel that I should no longer be eligible for income tax."

Dole, DPB, Sickness benefit , Pension, they are ALL welfare payments being paid for by those currently paying taxes.

No money has EVER been set aside for your pension, the tax you paid, paid for the retirement of those before you.

However I am currently paying taxes (which pay for the pension) AND paying into Kiwisaver, so I get to pay twice with no guarantee that there will be any government pension when I retire.

If you are working, you are not retired, but while you are filling that job there is someone on the dole who is missing out. So why should 2 benefits get paid by the tax payer ?

MikeB4

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#1568681 9-Jun-2016 14:03

sir1963:

MikeB4:
ajobbins:

MikeB4: Superannuation is not a Welfare Benefit.

What is it then? It's a government transfer payment just like any other form of 'welfare benefit'

Its a retirement payment in return for contributions.

It has NEVER been that. The tax paid has always been to pay for the retirement payments of those currently collecting the superannuation benefit.

There has never been any money "put aside" for those who paid taxes.

People assume because they paid taxes they are entitled and there is money set aside for them, however that is NOT true, and never has been true.

The Pension is a welfare payment and should be treated the same as any other. If you are working, you are not retired, why should you get superannuation ?

Some people treat superannuation as a 2nd income, but while a "retired" person is taking up that job, an unemployed person is on the dole, so we are in effect paying 2 benefits.

If you are independently wealthy, again why should you get superannuation ?

Earn over $100 a week on any other benefit and it gets deducted dollar for dollar, why should the pension be any different ?

I am currently paying for retired peoples super in my taxes AND contributing to a pension fund.

Kiwisaver (i.e. pension saving scheme) was only introduced in 2007.

Those currently retired pay taxes, paid taxes they are NOT taking anything from you.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

MikeB4

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#1568682 9-Jun-2016 14:04

As a disclosure although my signature says "retired" I receive no pension or welfare assistance from the Government.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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sir1963

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#1568685 9-Jun-2016 14:07

MikeB4:

ajobbins:

MikeB4:
ajobbins:

MikeB4: Superannuation is not a Welfare Benefit.

What is it then? It's a government transfer payment just like any other form of 'welfare benefit'

Its a retirement payment in return for contributions.

This really irks me. Paying tax during your working life is NOT a saving scheme for retirement. You get a pension no matter how much or little you paid in 'contributions'. Age pensions are simply a way of the government ensuring that those who cannot support themselves (because they are not working) are looked after, like any other benefit. The fact it's no longer means tested is simply a feature of that particular transfer payment.

And it's unlikely that my the time I retire, despite the fact I pay a LOT of tax, that there will be a government pension scheme left. There will be no money left as those of retirement age now are going to suck out more money from the tax system than they ever put in throughout their lives.

Learn some NZ history and you will see different, but possibly not.

When the government bought in the universal pension, where did they get the money from ?

Thats right, the people who were paying taxes. It had always been assumed that there would be enough tax payers to keep paying for the pension. The average life expectancy was somewhat shorter too, and we have more and more people making it past 100, so they can be retired for a longer period than they were earning. (And even non earning / low wage people get the pension)

Feel free to show me which government ever said that money you paid was set aside for your retirement.

sir1963

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#1568689 9-Jun-2016 14:13

MikeB4:

sir1963:

MikeB4:
ajobbins:

MikeB4: Superannuation is not a Welfare Benefit.

What is it then? It's a government transfer payment just like any other form of 'welfare benefit'

Its a retirement payment in return for contributions.

It has NEVER been that. The tax paid has always been to pay for the retirement payments of those currently collecting the superannuation benefit.

There has never been any money "put aside" for those who paid taxes.

People assume because they paid taxes they are entitled and there is money set aside for them, however that is NOT true, and never has been true.

The Pension is a welfare payment and should be treated the same as any other. If you are working, you are not retired, why should you get superannuation ?

Some people treat superannuation as a 2nd income, but while a "retired" person is taking up that job, an unemployed person is on the dole, so we are in effect paying 2 benefits.

If you are independently wealthy, again why should you get superannuation ?

Earn over $100 a week on any other benefit and it gets deducted dollar for dollar, why should the pension be any different ?

I am currently paying for retired peoples super in my taxes AND contributing to a pension fund.

Kiwisaver (i.e. pension saving scheme) was only introduced in 2007.

Those currently retired pay taxes, paid taxes they are NOT taking anything from you.

yes they are.

If tax payers stopped paying tax there would be no pension. There is not some great big magical pool of money built up to draw from.

Where the money comes from is no different to the DPB, Dole or sickness benefit, it ALL comes from todays tax payers.

MikeB4

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#1568694 9-Jun-2016 14:16

sir1963:

[

yes they are.

If tax payers stopped paying tax there would be no pension. There is not some great big magical pool of money built up to draw from.

Where the money comes from is no different to the DPB, Dole or sickness benefit, it ALL comes from todays tax payers.

Point of order: There is no such thing as Dole

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

nunz

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#1568695 9-Jun-2016 14:16

ajobbins:

MikeB4:
ajobbins:

MikeB4: Superannuation is not a Welfare Benefit.

What is it then? It's a government transfer payment just like any other form of 'welfare benefit'

Its a retirement payment in return for contributions.

This really irks me. Paying tax during your working life is NOT a saving scheme for retirement. You get a pension no matter how much or little you paid in 'contributions'. Age pensions are simply a way of the government ensuring that those who cannot support themselves (because they are not working) are looked after, like any other benefit. The fact it's no longer means tested is simply a feature of that particular transfer payment.

And it's unlikely that my the time I retire, despite the fact I pay a LOT of tax, that there will be a government pension scheme left. There will be no money left as those of retirement age now are going to suck out more money from the tax system than they ever put in throughout their lives.

I know my Dad for example, put in retirement money all through his working life then watched Muldoon appropriate it for think big projects. Before then I believe we had no overseas debt and the pension fund constituted a solid seas of wealth for us. some drew more than they put in, some died before drawing, some drew less. It's like ACC, 40 years of paying into not needed and now suddenly it is there for me but my wife still hasn't drawn on it.

It certainly isn't bludging - more a form on insurance. and paying tax has NOTHING to do with retirement - it is a totally different thing and always has been . Pension was a seperate line item on your pay slips - just like kiwi saver.

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