Talking of Tax/Healthcare/Student loans

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Forums › Finance and wealth management › Talking of Tax/Healthcare/Student loans - COME ON GOOGLE!

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nunz

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#1568698 9-Jun-2016 14:20

sir1963:

DaveB:

ajobbins:

MikeB4: Superannuation is not a Welfare Benefit.

What is it then? It's a government transfer payment just like any other form of 'welfare benefit'

It is the Government pension, - welfare benefits are a separate issue.

Now for those that feel that it should be means tested, I wonder how many would support me if I was to say -

"OK, rather than draw my pension when eligible (in other words forgo it), I will continue to work rather than retire. But in return for losing my pension, I feel that I should no longer be eligible for income tax."

Dole, DPB, Sickness benefit , Pension, they are ALL welfare payments being paid for by those currently paying taxes.

No money has EVER been set aside for your pension, the tax you paid, paid for the retirement of those before you.

However I am currently paying taxes (which pay for the pension) AND paying into Kiwisaver, so I get to pay twice with no guarantee that there will be any government pension when I retire.

If you are working, you are not retired, but while you are filling that job there is someone on the dole who is missing out. So why should 2 benefits get paid by the tax payer ?

>No money has EVER been set aside for your pension, the tax you paid, paid for the retirement of those before you.

Holy crud batman - I must have dreamed of paying pension and my dad must have dreamed it and MikeB must have dreamed it and every other kiwi person who ever paid pension must have dreamed it.

Seriously - check your history. and make sure you check it pre internet and google - it's really not that long ago.

Let me turn this around - Why should YOU benefit by the use of power generated by think big projects, paid for by the pension money put aside by MikeB, my dad and others, and then mis-appropriated by Muldoon for think big projects?

ajobbins

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#1568705 9-Jun-2016 14:37

nunz:

Holy crud batman - I must have dreamed of paying pension and my dad must have dreamed it and MikeB must have dreamed it and every other kiwi person who ever paid pension must have dreamed it.

Seriously - check your history. and make sure you check it pre internet and google - it's really not that long ago.

From Wikipedia:

A means-tested old age pension for those 65 years and older was introduced in 1898. This established some key features of public pensions in New Zealand, such as the use of general government spending rather than individual contributions, and a "pay as you go" rather than actuarial approach to funding.

.....

The third Labour government introduced a compulsory superannuation scheme in 1975 where employees and employers each contributed at least 4 per cent of gross earnings. Rob Muldoon's third National government abolished the Labour scheme the following year, and in 1977 created a universal (not means-tested) scheme called National Superannuation that paid 80% of the average wage to married people over 60. The age of eligibility was lifted to 61 in 1992, then gradually raised to 65 between 1993 and 2001.

So for one year only it was a separate thing (maybe).

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MikeB4

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#1568707 9-Jun-2016 14:42

ajobbins:

nunz:

Holy crud batman - I must have dreamed of paying pension and my dad must have dreamed it and MikeB must have dreamed it and every other kiwi person who ever paid pension must have dreamed it.

Seriously - check your history. and make sure you check it pre internet and google - it's really not that long ago.

From Wikipedia:

A means-tested old age pension for those 65 years and older was introduced in 1898. This established some key features of public pensions in New Zealand, such as the use of general government spending rather than individual contributions, and a "pay as you go" rather than actuarial approach to funding.

.....

The third Labour government introduced a compulsory superannuation scheme in 1975 where employees and employers each contributed at least 4 per cent of gross earnings. Rob Muldoon's third National government abolished the Labour scheme the following year, and in 1977 created a universal (not means-tested) scheme called National Superannuation that paid 80% of the average wage to married people over 60. The age of eligibility was lifted to 61 in 1992, then gradually raised to 65 between 1993 and 2001.

So for one year only it was a separate thing (maybe).

Dig deeper you are missing many years.

edit: actually don't this will just turn into another age/benefit binge. I'm out, I should have listened to my instinct these always end the same here.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

ajobbins

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#1568711 9-Jun-2016 14:47

MikeB4:

Dig deeper you are missing many years.

edit: actually don't this will just turn into another age/benefit binge. I'm out, I should have listened to my instinct these always end the same here.

You're going to have to point out where to look, as the Wikipedia site mentions nothing else of this nature - and if it's missing important info, please cite.

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Hammerer

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#1568712 9-Jun-2016 14:48

Aren't we betwixt and between having a mixture with prefunding.

A move to a partially pre-funded or "smoothed pay-as-you-go" system was made with the creation of the New Zealand Superannuation Fund under the leadership of Labour Minister of Finance Michael Cullen in 2001.

sir1963

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#1568719 9-Jun-2016 14:58

MikeB4:

sir1963:

[

yes they are.

If tax payers stopped paying tax there would be no pension. There is not some great big magical pool of money built up to draw from.

Where the money comes from is no different to the DPB, Dole or sickness benefit, it ALL comes from todays tax payers.

Point of order: There is no such thing as Dole

Unemployment benefit or what other current catch phase is being used then.

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sir1963

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#1568760 9-Jun-2016 15:36

nunz:

sir1963:

DaveB:

ajobbins:

MikeB4: Superannuation is not a Welfare Benefit.

What is it then? It's a government transfer payment just like any other form of 'welfare benefit'

It is the Government pension, - welfare benefits are a separate issue.

Now for those that feel that it should be means tested, I wonder how many would support me if I was to say -

"OK, rather than draw my pension when eligible (in other words forgo it), I will continue to work rather than retire. But in return for losing my pension, I feel that I should no longer be eligible for income tax."

Dole, DPB, Sickness benefit , Pension, they are ALL welfare payments being paid for by those currently paying taxes.

No money has EVER been set aside for your pension, the tax you paid, paid for the retirement of those before you.

However I am currently paying taxes (which pay for the pension) AND paying into Kiwisaver, so I get to pay twice with no guarantee that there will be any government pension when I retire.

If you are working, you are not retired, but while you are filling that job there is someone on the dole who is missing out. So why should 2 benefits get paid by the tax payer ?

>No money has EVER been set aside for your pension, the tax you paid, paid for the retirement of those before you.

Holy crud batman - I must have dreamed of paying pension and my dad must have dreamed it and MikeB must have dreamed it and every other kiwi person who ever paid pension must have dreamed it.

Seriously - check your history. and make sure you check it pre internet and google - it's really not that long ago.

Let me turn this around - Why should YOU benefit by the use of power generated by think big projects, paid for by the pension money put aside by MikeB, my dad and others, and then mis-appropriated by Muldoon for think big projects?

Yes, you did dream it. Just because its a commonly held belief does not make it true.

YOU paid taxes to the government the government takes 100% of those taxes, then pays some to health, education, pensions, law and order, etc etc etc etc.

Lets assume you pay $100 a week in taxes, of which $20 goes towards Joe Bloggs pension

Joes Bloggs get $20 from you and $20 from multiple others until get gets his full pension paid. That leaves the government $80 for the rest of the things it does.

NOW

If you (and others) directly paid Joe Bloggs $20 and you only paid $80 in taxes, you still pay $100, no change for you or Joe Bloggs, you just removed the government as the middleman.

So, how much money have you paid for someones pension, thats right, $20. How much was set aside for your retirement, $0. Joe Bloggs has spent it on his retirement and may well be dead by the time you retire so you can't ask him for it.

The ONLY play YOUR (current) retirement benefit comes from is the current tax payer.

So, as a challenge, go and look at your tax returns, find me anywhere that says "pension" as a line item, there is none. The taxes you paid were taxes, not pension contributions. The fact the government used some of those taxes to pay pensions is irrelevant. Couples with no children don't get a tax discount because they dont use the education system (even worse the don't get tax breaks couple with kids get!). Blind people also don't get discounts for all the street signs they can't read, and so on. The one year of compulsory payments in 1975 at 4% (average wage being $5,000 p.a.) would have been $200 for the year.

Feel free to take your two weeks average wage and stop collecting the pension from those of us who are currently paying it. Even if we paid an average of 7% interest, compounding, you would only get 32 weeks of the average wage now, less if we take into account taxes.

As for think Big

"The Think Big schemes saw the government borrow heavily overseas, running up a large external deficit, and using the funds for large-scale industrial projects."

So children, unable to vote, who later got into the workforce paid for those projects + interest over decades (or longer) and STILL paid for the pension for those gone before them.

nunz

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#1568796 9-Jun-2016 16:06

sir1963:

nunz:

sir1963:

DaveB:

ajobbins:

MikeB4: Superannuation is not a Welfare Benefit.

What is it then? It's a government transfer payment just like any other form of 'welfare benefit'

It is the Government pension, - welfare benefits are a separate issue.

Now for those that feel that it should be means tested, I wonder how many would support me if I was to say -

"OK, rather than draw my pension when eligible (in other words forgo it), I will continue to work rather than retire. But in return for losing my pension, I feel that I should no longer be eligible for income tax."

Dole, DPB, Sickness benefit , Pension, they are ALL welfare payments being paid for by those currently paying taxes.

No money has EVER been set aside for your pension, the tax you paid, paid for the retirement of those before you.

However I am currently paying taxes (which pay for the pension) AND paying into Kiwisaver, so I get to pay twice with no guarantee that there will be any government pension when I retire.

If you are working, you are not retired, but while you are filling that job there is someone on the dole who is missing out. So why should 2 benefits get paid by the tax payer ?

>No money has EVER been set aside for your pension, the tax you paid, paid for the retirement of those before you.

Holy crud batman - I must have dreamed of paying pension and my dad must have dreamed it and MikeB must have dreamed it and every other kiwi person who ever paid pension must have dreamed it.

Seriously - check your history. and make sure you check it pre internet and google - it's really not that long ago.

Let me turn this around - Why should YOU benefit by the use of power generated by think big projects, paid for by the pension money put aside by MikeB, my dad and others, and then mis-appropriated by Muldoon for think big projects?

Yes, you did dream it. Just because its a commonly held belief does not make it true.

YOU paid taxes to the government the government takes 100% of those taxes, then pays some to health, education, pensions, law and order, etc etc etc etc.

Lets assume you pay $100 a week in taxes, of which $20 goes towards Joe Bloggs pension

Joes Bloggs get $20 from you and $20 from multiple others until get gets his full pension paid. That leaves the government $80 for the rest of the things it does.

NOW

If you (and others) directly paid Joe Bloggs $20 and you only paid $80 in taxes, you still pay $100, no change for you or Joe Bloggs, you just removed the government as the middleman.

So, how much money have you paid for someones pension, thats right, $20. How much was set aside for your retirement, $0. Joe Bloggs has spent it on his retirement and may well be dead by the time you retire so you can't ask him for it.

The ONLY play YOUR (current) retirement benefit comes from is the current tax payer.

So, as a challenge, go and look at your tax returns, find me anywhere that says "pension" as a line item, there is none. The taxes you paid were taxes, not pension contributions. The fact the government used some of those taxes to pay pensions is irrelevant. Couples with no children don't get a tax discount because they dont use the education system (even worse the don't get tax breaks couple with kids get!). Blind people also don't get discounts for all the street signs they can't read, and so on. The one year of compulsory payments in 1975 at 4% (average wage being $5,000 p.a.) would have been $200 for the year.

Feel free to take your two weeks average wage and stop collecting the pension from those of us who are currently paying it. Even if we paid an average of 7% interest, compounding, you would only get 32 weeks of the average wage now, less if we take into account taxes.

As for think Big

"The Think Big schemes saw the government borrow heavily overseas, running up a large external deficit, and using the funds for large-scale industrial projects."

So children, unable to vote, who later got into the workforce paid for those projects + interest over decades (or longer) and STILL paid for the pension for those gone before them.

you have completely missed the following which were levies, seperate to normal taxes.

1940's Universal superannuation

At age 65 those not entitled to the Age Benefit received a small universal superannuation payment of £10 a year effective from 1940, plus the promise that this payment would gradually be increased to match the Age Benefit. However, it was not until 1960 that this point was actually reached.

At its inception the new pension scheme was expensive, with more costs signalled through the universal superannuation promise.

A new Social Security tax of 5 percent of earnings (one shilling in the pound) was introduced to cover the increased costs of pensions, other social security payments and health. In practice the tax was not enough, and much of the social security cost increases had to be funded from general revenues.

and this wasn't the first or last time a levy for Age Benefit (Pension) was levied. Separate funds were set aside, as different to the main tax pool, since the early 1900s or earlier.

sir1963

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#1568820 9-Jun-2016 16:43

nunz:

sir1963:

nunz:

sir1963:

DaveB:

ajobbins:

MikeB4: Superannuation is not a Welfare Benefit.

What is it then? It's a government transfer payment just like any other form of 'welfare benefit'

It is the Government pension, - welfare benefits are a separate issue.

Now for those that feel that it should be means tested, I wonder how many would support me if I was to say -

"OK, rather than draw my pension when eligible (in other words forgo it), I will continue to work rather than retire. But in return for losing my pension, I feel that I should no longer be eligible for income tax."

Dole, DPB, Sickness benefit , Pension, they are ALL welfare payments being paid for by those currently paying taxes.

No money has EVER been set aside for your pension, the tax you paid, paid for the retirement of those before you.

However I am currently paying taxes (which pay for the pension) AND paying into Kiwisaver, so I get to pay twice with no guarantee that there will be any government pension when I retire.

If you are working, you are not retired, but while you are filling that job there is someone on the dole who is missing out. So why should 2 benefits get paid by the tax payer ?

>No money has EVER been set aside for your pension, the tax you paid, paid for the retirement of those before you.

Holy crud batman - I must have dreamed of paying pension and my dad must have dreamed it and MikeB must have dreamed it and every other kiwi person who ever paid pension must have dreamed it.

Seriously - check your history. and make sure you check it pre internet and google - it's really not that long ago.

Let me turn this around - Why should YOU benefit by the use of power generated by think big projects, paid for by the pension money put aside by MikeB, my dad and others, and then mis-appropriated by Muldoon for think big projects?

Yes, you did dream it. Just because its a commonly held belief does not make it true.

YOU paid taxes to the government the government takes 100% of those taxes, then pays some to health, education, pensions, law and order, etc etc etc etc.

Lets assume you pay $100 a week in taxes, of which $20 goes towards Joe Bloggs pension

Joes Bloggs get $20 from you and $20 from multiple others until get gets his full pension paid. That leaves the government $80 for the rest of the things it does.

NOW

If you (and others) directly paid Joe Bloggs $20 and you only paid $80 in taxes, you still pay $100, no change for you or Joe Bloggs, you just removed the government as the middleman.

So, how much money have you paid for someones pension, thats right, $20. How much was set aside for your retirement, $0. Joe Bloggs has spent it on his retirement and may well be dead by the time you retire so you can't ask him for it.

The ONLY play YOUR (current) retirement benefit comes from is the current tax payer.

So, as a challenge, go and look at your tax returns, find me anywhere that says "pension" as a line item, there is none. The taxes you paid were taxes, not pension contributions. The fact the government used some of those taxes to pay pensions is irrelevant. Couples with no children don't get a tax discount because they dont use the education system (even worse the don't get tax breaks couple with kids get!). Blind people also don't get discounts for all the street signs they can't read, and so on. The one year of compulsory payments in 1975 at 4% (average wage being $5,000 p.a.) would have been $200 for the year.

Feel free to take your two weeks average wage and stop collecting the pension from those of us who are currently paying it. Even if we paid an average of 7% interest, compounding, you would only get 32 weeks of the average wage now, less if we take into account taxes.

As for think Big

"The Think Big schemes saw the government borrow heavily overseas, running up a large external deficit, and using the funds for large-scale industrial projects."

So children, unable to vote, who later got into the workforce paid for those projects + interest over decades (or longer) and STILL paid for the pension for those gone before them.

you have completely missed the following which were levies, seperate to normal taxes.

1940's Universal superannuation

At age 65 those not entitled to the Age Benefit received a small universal superannuation payment of £10 a year effective from 1940, plus the promise that this payment would gradually be increased to match the Age Benefit. However, it was not until 1960 that this point was actually reached.

At its inception the new pension scheme was expensive, with more costs signalled through the universal superannuation promise.

A new Social Security tax of 5 percent of earnings (one shilling in the pound) was introduced to cover the increased costs of pensions, other social security payments and health. In practice the tax was not enough, and much of the social security cost increases had to be funded from general revenues.

and this wasn't the first or last time a levy for Age Benefit (Pension) was levied. Separate funds were set aside, as different to the main tax pool, since the early 1900s or earlier.

Lets make this REAL simple.

You put $1 into a tin (call it taxes, levy, what ever), I take $1 out of the tin (call it pension)

You put money in because you are working, I take it out because I am retired.

At the end of that transaction, how much money is in the tin ?

Zero.

We do this same transaction every week over 40 years, you put $1 in, I take $1 out.

After 40 years of weekly payments, how much is left in that tin ?

Still the same, zero.

So now the only way you get paid from the tin is if another generation of worker put in their $1.

Somewhere, sometime, someone has started receiving the pension without having contributed to it.

So they have not built up a pension, no money was set aside for them, but suddenly when the Age benefit, Pension, or what ever was the flavour of the month at the time, a group of people started collecting it

taking that $1 that the people who were employed put into the tin. We have family who none of them have had full time work for 5 generations, yet they get the same pension as everyone else, having never contributed to the pension and always having been a drain on taxes. Someone is paying for them.

And it does not matter how many generation of people you go though

A pay for B, B pays for C, C pays for D, D pays for E... etc etc at the end, someone puts $1 into the tin, someone take it out.

Worse now though is that the people who are taking that $1 out of the tin are doing so for a longer period of time, and for that longer period of time they also receive more complex, more expensive medical care.

HOWEVER, we now have Kiwisaver and other targeted pension schemes.

So while you are still putting $1 into the tin for someone else to take out, you are now also putting in $1 into a bank account reserved just for you, payable on death or retirement.

NOW with kiwisaver can you actually say money is being put aside for YOU, for your benefit, for your retirement.

Now I have an Uncle who not only paid taxes for 40 years and more , he put money into a government employees superannuation scheme, so he gets the pension AND superannuation paid to him.

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