Is Dolby Atmos the Audio Equivalent of 3D TV?

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326 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 62

#1749830 28-Mar-2017 23:14

Maxcat:
No it doesn't.

What it does is distort the soundfield into another format the film was never created in.

I was asked earlier what I wanted from Atmos - my reply: accurate to the source.

Upmixing is simply adding distortion that listeners may like, it is though, not accurate soundtrack reproduction.

Only the ceiling speakers, the base speakers are unchanged.
Have you tried it somewhere?

rokki

374 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 49

#1749850 29-Mar-2017 05:07

I have read the same Dolby info as everyone else. I have to say the object based branding is (as another reviewer put it..) somewhat 'nebulous' to put it mildly.

In my opinion as an owner their is nothing vague about it.

However, the key issue for me and many others is the success of the Atmos format. There are many barriers to it gaining traction, not the least of which is the issue of ease of install in existing systems.

I thought one way this might be possible is to add a decoder with a simple HDMI pass-through option routed through the add-on Atmos device and then to the main receiver processing. The add-on decoder would have wireless RF/Bluetooth to the ceiling speakers which are active.

In my opinion adding another device into the HDMI Chain which is already prone to being flaky and then mixing wired and non-wired means to get sound to external speakers is fraught with danger latency for one.

In this way both the receiver and add-on work together to create the 'object based' soundfield - only this time all done in the digital domain.

As I said in my first post I am not entirely sure you understand how Atmos and DTS X arrive to the appropriate speaker. The Atmos and DTS X information are in your Blu Ray or UHD Disc or embedded in the Audio Stream long before it is decoded by your Reciever and then sent to the appropriate speaker/s.

In so doing it may provide a cheap add-on just as my Dolby Surround processor and the early Yamaha DSP units (1985) and Pro-Logic and DD/DTS units did in the 1990s.

Again I don't believe it could de done properly. If a sound arrives in the wrong order it would have the effect of pulling you straight out of the movie. Like dropped frames or lip sync issues.

My gear 55" Samsung 4K SUHD LCD HDR , Denon AVR-4200W Reciever in 7.1.2 Surround , Denon 2 Channel Amp to power ceiling speakers , Combination of Polk Audio Fronts And Tannoy Surrounds plus 2 Cambridge Audio Ceiling Speakers Pioneer Downfiring Subwoofer , Oppo UDP-203 UHD Player , Roku Ultra , Apple TV 3

rokki

374 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 49

#1749851 29-Mar-2017 05:08

kendog:
Maxcat:
No it doesn't.

What it does is distort the soundfield into another format the film was never created in.

I was asked earlier what I wanted from Atmos - my reply: accurate to the source.

Upmixing is simply adding distortion that listeners may like, it is though, not accurate soundtrack reproduction.

Only the ceiling speakers, the base speakers are unchanged.
Have you tried it somewhere?

Hi Ken I am not sure that he has heard it let alone done properly.

Maxcat

273 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 74

#1749853 29-Mar-2017 06:06

kendog:
Maxcat:

No it doesn't.

What it does is distort the soundfield into another format the film was never created in.

I was asked earlier what I wanted from Atmos - my reply: accurate to the source.

Upmixing is simply adding distortion that listeners may like, it is though, not accurate soundtrack reproduction.

Only the ceiling speakers, the base speakers are unchanged.
Have you tried it somewhere?

The soundfield has changed.

This is a classic 'reference v preference' issue.

The standard Dolby set up for 5.1 never recommended ceiling speakers.

If you go back to my replay criterion I have said: "The objective is to retrieve *without alteration or colouration* the information that is on the soundtrack."

Putting ceiling speakers in a 5.1 playback array is alteration.

If your HT system interferes with the signal as created by the soundtrack engineer, that is distortion.

So the reference is accurate recovery and playback of information as produced on the soundtrack. Your preference however, may be to put your speakers in the ceiling and enjoy the soundfield.

I subscribe still to the founding principles of high fidelity - that requires a neutral replay platform that does not add or subtract from what is on the disc (hence my well documented view of dipole surrounds).

You have to arrive at a founding audio philosophy - reference or preference?

rokki

374 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 49

#1749878 29-Mar-2017 08:01

Maxcat:
kendog:
Maxcat:

No it doesn't.

What it does is distort the soundfield into another format the film was never created in.

I was asked earlier what I wanted from Atmos - my reply: accurate to the source.

Upmixing is simply adding distortion that listeners may like, it is though, not accurate soundtrack reproduction.

Only the ceiling speakers, the base speakers are unchanged.
Have you tried it somewhere?

The soundfield has changed.

This is a classic 'reference v preference' issue.

The standard Dolby set up for 5.1 never recommended ceiling speakers.

If you go back to my replay criterion I have said: "The objective is to retrieve *without alteration or colouration* the information that is on the soundtrack."

Putting ceiling speakers in a 5.1 playback array is alteration.

If your HT system interferes with the signal as created by the soundtrack engineer, that is distortion.

So the reference is accurate recovery and playback of information as produced on the soundtrack. Your preference however, may be to put your speakers in the ceiling and enjoy the soundfield.

I subscribe still to the founding principles of high fidelity - that requires a neutral replay platform that does not add or subtract from what is on the disc (hence my well documented view of dipole surrounds).

You have to arrive at a founding audio philosophy - reference or preference?

Max if a sound engineer and director want you to hear a sound just off your left ear and above , how is that distorting a sound track or are you stuck in the past believing a 5.1 soundtrack is be all and end all.

Please read this article I believe it will help

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/131069-dolby-atmos-explained-what-is-it-and-how-do-i-get-it

The key words in this article is what the sound engineer wants you to hear.

Maxcat

273 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 74

#1749882 29-Mar-2017 08:10

5.1 is not the be-all and end-all.

What is important is what is on the soundtrack. That is the reference. Whether is is stereo, Quadraphonic, 5.1 or Atmos, it is what is on the tape.

Are you reference or preference?

You don't appear to understand this issue. I am not debating the merits of an Atmos soundfield.

I am debating the merits (and reference playback) of a 5.1 soundtrack being replayed on a non 5.1 speaker platform.

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rokki

374 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 49

#1749962 29-Mar-2017 10:07

Maxcat:
5.1 is not the be-all and end-all.

What is important is what is on the soundtrack. That is the reference. Whether is is stereo, Quadraphonic, 5.1 or Atmos, it is what is on the tape.

Are you reference or preference?

You don't appear to understand this issue. I am not debating the merits of an Atmos soundfield.

I am debating the merits (and reference playback) of a 5.1 soundtrack being replayed on a non 5.1 speaker platform.

I am always about reference it the director wants me to hear the sound in 5.1 then that is what I will listen to. Same if it is a cd then two channel it is.

Maxcat

273 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 74

#1749963 29-Mar-2017 10:08

Agreed.

Then what do you do when the standard replay platform for 5.1 is changed? (See recommended Atmos speaker layout).

rokki

374 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 49

#1750005 29-Mar-2017 11:03

Maxcat:
Agreed.

Then what do you do when the standard replay platform for 5.1 is changed? (See recommended Atmos speaker layout).

I would argue that 5.1 is no longer the standard each disc is individual.

Maxcat

273 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 74

#1750009 29-Mar-2017 11:08

rokki:
Maxcat:

Agreed.

Then what do you do when the standard replay platform for 5.1 is changed? (See recommended Atmos speaker layout).

I would argue that 5.1 is no longer the standard each disc is individual.

There is no standard other than what is on the disc. That is the reference.

Reference playback of 5.1 is on a 5.1 platform.

To upmix 5.1 to an Atmos array including ceiling speakers is the audio equivalent of B&W film colourisation.

It is no longer accurate and no longer what was originally produced.

So can I take you at your word, there will be no Atmos Upmixing of 5.1 films on your reference system?

rokki

374 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 49

#1750017 29-Mar-2017 11:34

Maxcat:
rokki:
Maxcat:

Agreed.

Then what do you do when the standard replay platform for 5.1 is changed? (See recommended Atmos speaker layout).

I would argue that 5.1 is no longer the standard each disc is individual.

There is no standard other than what is on the disc. That is the reference.

Reference playback of 5.1 is on a 5.1 platform.

To upmix 5.1 to an Atmos array including ceiling speakers is the audio equivalent of B&W film colourisation.

It is no longer accurate and no longer what was originally produced.

So can I take you at your word, there will be no Atmos Upmixing of 5.1 films on your reference system?

I go both ways. For example I have the Blu Ray of Akira which has a very special audio track as part of the Dolby True HD on that disc I will turn of the two rear back speakers and the Atmos Speakers. Other times if listening to a concert Blu Ray then I might leave all on to simulate being at the concert. So I guess I fall somewhere between reference and preference in hindsight. I guess a lot depends on the gear you have as well.

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Maxcat

273 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 74

#1750032 29-Mar-2017 11:44

rokki:
Maxcat:

rokki:
Maxcat:

Agreed.

Then what do you do when the standard replay platform for 5.1 is changed? (See recommended Atmos speaker layout).

I would argue that 5.1 is no longer the standard each disc is individual.

There is no standard other than what is on the disc. That is the reference.

Reference playback of 5.1 is on a 5.1 platform.

To upmix 5.1 to an Atmos array including ceiling speakers is the audio equivalent of B&W film colourisation.

It is no longer accurate and no longer what was originally produced.

So can I take you at your word, there will be no Atmos Upmixing of 5.1 films on your reference system?

I go both ways. For example I have the Blu Ray of Akira which has a very special audio track as part of the Dolby True HD on that disc I will turn of the two rear back speakers and the Atmos Speakers. Other times if listening to a concert Blu Ray then I might leave all on to simulate being at the concert. So I guess I fall somewhere between reference and preference in hindsight. I guess a lot depends on the gear you have as well.

You can like what you like. It is simply know what you're doing and WHY you are doing it.

For me over the 25+ years of being around decoders, any time you mess with the original soundtrack you create artifacts. Upmixing 5.1 to Atmos is asking for trouble (quite aside from it being fundamentally inaccurate).

Reading elsewhere of Upmixing Atmos sometimes has dialogue coming from the ceiling. I had much the same thing with Yamaha Cinema DSP in the 1990s with huge amounts of channel leakage and distortion. I gave up on Cinema DSP and arrived at a 'what goes in comes out' philosophy = Reference playback.

That is what is important here. Are you Reference or Preference?

Answer that and the rest I think in terms of establishing/building a home based performance envelope sorts itself out.

Batman

Mad Scientist
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Uber Geek
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#1750060 29-Mar-2017 12:27

I would argue that quad high end subs + 5.1 >>> dolby atmos with one of any sub.
Because most movies have decent LFE channel but not all movies have good surround encoding. I was watching (can't remember what) an action movie the other day and there was hardly any sound coming from my 2 rear speakers.

rokki

374 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 49

#1750067 29-Mar-2017 12:32

Maxcat:
rokki:
Maxcat:

rokki:
Maxcat:

Agreed.

Then what do you do when the standard replay platform for 5.1 is changed? (See recommended Atmos speaker layout).

I would argue that 5.1 is no longer the standard each disc is individual.

There is no standard other than what is on the disc. That is the reference.

Reference playback of 5.1 is on a 5.1 platform.

To upmix 5.1 to an Atmos array including ceiling speakers is the audio equivalent of B&W film colourisation.

It is no longer accurate and no longer what was originally produced.

So can I take you at your word, there will be no Atmos Upmixing of 5.1 films on your reference system?

I go both ways. For example I have the Blu Ray of Akira which has a very special audio track as part of the Dolby True HD on that disc I will turn of the two rear back speakers and the Atmos Speakers. Other times if listening to a concert Blu Ray then I might leave all on to simulate being at the concert. So I guess I fall somewhere between reference and preference in hindsight. I guess a lot depends on the gear you have as well.

You can like what you like. It is simply know what you're doing and WHY you are doing it.

For me over the 25+ years of being around decoders, any time you mess with the original soundtrack you create artifacts. Upmixing 5.1 to Atmos is asking for trouble (quite aside from it being fundamentally inaccurate).

Reading elsewhere of Upmixing Atmos sometimes has dialogue coming from the ceiling. I had much the same thing with Yamaha Cinema DSP in the 1990s with huge amounts of channel leakage and distortion. I gave up on Cinema DSP and arrived at a 'what goes in comes out' philosophy = Reference playback.

That is what is important here. Are you Reference or Preference?

Answer that and the rest I think in terms of establishing/building a home based performance envelope sorts itself out.

I think I will go for something in between. Dependent on source materiel.

Maxcat

273 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 74

#1750068 29-Mar-2017 12:33

I think the (financial) future for Atmos lies not with film but with games PS4 and others.

Gamers seem particularly enthusiastic about the 3D effect and given the market size for gaming, I can see it gaining traction there which may help with HT and film, which may become a smaller market segment for Dolby Atmos.

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