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195 posts

Master Geek


# 38645 3-Aug-2009 12:18
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From another thread

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=83&topicid=38097&page_no=4#240444

there has been some discussion about Sony Bluray players BDP-S350 and BDP-S550 and inaccurate promotional data regarding HD component capabilities.  Given continuing concerns this topic deserves its own thread in what I hope is the right section of Geekzone?

In the above thread is noted:

I note today that Sony's Bluray specification pages (referenced earlier) for "Blu-ray Output" have now changed to:

576i / 576p (50Hz) via component ;
576i / 576p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p (50Hz) via HDMI


They had said:

480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p via component ;
576i / 576p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p via HDMI


While
it is good to see the information corrected for consumers and that the
50Hz clarification is appropriately included, it is also disappointing
that it was incorrect in the first place.

Assuming the new information to be correct, one might observe that the previous component information was 100% incorrect!

I still can find no reference to ICT and how that benefits (?) the Bluray consumer.

It is particularly interesting that there is now no longer reference to 1080i or 720p over component at all, even though in some circumstances the manuals suggest (apart from fine print circumstances) 720p and 1080i work fine.



I see somehow Sony has not managed to keep its fantastic technology under control as the gremlins are back with the latest current model BDP-S360 (BDPS360) offering

From http://sony.co.nz/products/product/blu-ray-and-dvd/blu-ray-player/bdps360.jsp specifications

Blu-ray Output 
480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p via component ; 576i / 576p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p via HDMI

Given this promotional information, would it be reasonable to expect to get 1080p from this bluray player when playing 1080p discs 100% of the time?  I think so. 

My proposition and principle concern is that if manufacturers are going to implement technology that knee caps consumer equipment, then to be fair to the consumer they must tell the consumer that the equipment will do this when playing certain discs that have ICT embedded.

How could a consumer possibly know about this when the sales material does not tell them?

Can a consumer make a fair choice whether to purchase the technology if they are not told the whole story - and how their viewing experience may well be knee capped if they use component to display HD - component is quite capable of transmitting 1080p - its just the manual confirms this player is specifically designed not to deliver it!  It says "unselectable" 

See pages 61 or 62 of the manuals available from http://www.sony-asia.com/support/manual/product/bdp-s360/modelfirst

OR its Sorry - you should have read the fine print...and done your research also.......

Now come on Sony, I think you can do better for your customers....please...

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2514 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user


  # 242122 4-Aug-2009 07:01
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How's the weather there at Panasonic?



195 posts

Master Geek


  # 242140 4-Aug-2009 07:59
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Good question punter dickytim, your most excellent and relevant point is that there are many posts here from people with diverse interests and agenda's that are not declared and could well be seen as attempts to muddy the water here. Just as the reader peruses the media with care, the reader has to sort the wheat from the chaff in the posts here also....

Please feel free to check out others offerings and do let us know. It would not surprise me at all if others were not squeakly clean either, after all Sony was merely one of many that developed HDMI.

While HDMI is fantastic technology the admission of problems (I refer to the need to have delays in implementation of ICT) is merely one indication there are Achilles heels in its armour. If they are going to implement fantastic technology, to be successful they need to implement it - fantastically! I am not sure they have done this, time will tell.

My interest came from my consumer experience and investigation of an under documented purportedly HD CRT TV from Sony. Sony does not publish the definition the viewer sees on the DA28. Why would that be would you think?

What is your interest dicktim?

 
 
 
 




195 posts

Master Geek


  # 242808 5-Aug-2009 07:56
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Its amazing what Sony can do!

Seems overnight they have worked very hard on their Bluray player.

Today they are promoting the same BDPS360 bluray player from http://sony.co.nz/products/product/blu-ray-and-dvd/blu-ray-player/bdps360.jsp specifications.


Blu-ray Output
480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i (60Hz) via component;
576i / 576p (50Hz) via component;
576i / 576p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p (50Hz) via HDMI;
480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p (60Hz) via HDMI;
1080p (24Hz) via HDMI


It appears that 720p / 1080i (60Hz) via component is now promoted WITHOUT EXCEPTION - EVER.

Fantastic comprehensive options for the consumer, well done Sony.



195 posts

Master Geek


  # 242814 5-Aug-2009 08:18
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Sorry Folks, its not quite fantastic or comprehensive - seems 1080p over component has been taken away.

Shame.

635 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 242869 5-Aug-2009 09:58
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Wasn't blu-ray and HD-DVD invented to firstly increase the picture/sound quality of content and secondly to enforce HDCP and digital content restrictions on consumers. I.E buy legit players with certification otherwise you get DVD quality.

This would also explain why all blu-ray movies I have come with a 480p version so devices that do not meet the HDCP/HDMI standards have to play the lower bit rate version with 5.1 surround.

Surely this was common knowledge?

Component = Analogue = Not HDCP compliant?

cheers
db




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195 posts

Master Geek


  # 242872 5-Aug-2009 10:06
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browned:
Surely this was common knowledge?


Wouldn't you wish??

No one else in our household would have any concept of this, that includes people with very significant tertiary education.

It may be common knowledge amongst interested geeks....  however grass roots consumers will have no idea.  It is well known the vast majority of people couldn't use all the features on their video player....

The manuals fine print doesn't sufficiently explain it....

Perhaps browned you might like to ask around?

635 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 242900 5-Aug-2009 11:01
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Surely in this day and age you wouldn't buy anything except the basics food, clothing, without researching the available products and standards first?

Do you buy a car because it looks nice or is the colour you like or do you find out the condition of the car first and any likely issues it may have and the prices of said car to make sure the one you are buying is comparable to others on the market?

Here is a word for you.....DisplayPort. Now before you buy anything blu-ray, digital, tv, player orientated make sure you have researched this standard and how it might apply to you and your future.

cheers
db




Home Server: AMD Threadripper 1950X, 64GB, 56TB HDD, Define R6 Case, 10GbE, ESXi 6.7, UNRAID, NextPVR, Emby Server, Plex Server.
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Kids Media Center: NVIDIA Shield TV 16GB: Kodi18 with Titan MOD, Emby.
Main PC: Ryzen 7 2700, 16GB RAM, RX 570, 2 x 24"


 
 
 
 




195 posts

Master Geek


  # 243184 5-Aug-2009 19:07
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browned: I assume that in using the word "you" is in reference to anyone and specifically not me, as that would give you some semblance to remaining on point. As before, I suggest that you ask around, try the person serving you at the coffee machine, the person taking your money at the service station and the person serving you at the supermarket.

Speculating on what might be common knowledge serves us much less than you actually asking a few random people and letting us know what you find. Do please let us know.

Your point about displayport is largely lost on me, its not widely implemented, its not in much I currently want, why mention it? Sure it has many of the same problems. Is someone promoting it and potentially misleading consumers with this too?

This thread is all about Sony potentially misleading consumers by giving them incorrect, incomplete and conflicting information about some Sony Bluray players. I look forward to your wisdom on this.



195 posts

Master Geek


  # 243221 5-Aug-2009 20:19
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To make it easy for those who are less inclined to download the manual this is similar to the section from Page 61 from one of the downloadable manuals, including the fine print stating the purported capabilities of a Sony Bluray player, solely for study purposes, to contrast to the much more readily accessible website information at the start of this thread:

Originally: Blu-ray Output
480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p via component ; 576i / 576p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p via HDMI

Now: Blu-ray Output
480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i (60Hz) via component;
576i / 576p (50Hz) via component;
576i / 576p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p (50Hz) via HDMI;
480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p (60Hz) via HDMI;
1080p (24Hz) via HDMI
 

What about the component HD* fine print?



2391 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  # 243224 5-Aug-2009 20:29
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You can get a HDFury2 if your (FULL)HD(-Ready) TV only has component out and your device (SkyTV, Bluray etc) only has HD over HDMI to convert. I know a number of people who have them



195 posts

Master Geek


  # 243315 5-Aug-2009 23:50
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Seems there is some interest in the question whether I am working for Panasonic.  Why people would think that I look forward to understanding!

So lets look at Panasonic... First page I came across:

http://www.panasonic.co.nz/at-home/entertainment/blu-ray/bmp-bd80gn-k.html


Up-Conversion to 1080p*6 Playback ....
Component Video Out (Y, PB, PR)


I guess that means a consumer could expect to watch 1080p in all circumstances over component when buying a Panasonic Bluray player. 

Seems that may not be very helpful or revealing to consumers either. Hmmm.

While Sony is providing more information the reader can choose who is doing better.

I am already on record predicting and now remaining not surprised.

I hope that puts that question to rest.  Anyone care to check out Samsung and the others?


2391 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  # 243319 6-Aug-2009 00:06
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so it takes 1080i BluRay.. downscales it to 576i as its not going via HDMI and then upscales to display it to component again 1080 again???
so effectively 576i? in a 1080i scaled view....??





195 posts

Master Geek


  # 243322 6-Aug-2009 00:16
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Thank you LennonNZ

Without getting into the possible permutations and combinations of what might be intended I think my point is well illustrated that now two manufacturers have not been giving good information to consumers.

635 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 243383 6-Aug-2009 10:27
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So your gripe is that component can display 1080i but only displays 480p/576i. Again HD content has been designed to do this. They want you to use the protected content but not be able to copy it. They don't mind the DVD quality stream being copied as DVD's are already so easy to copy there is nothing they can do to stop it.

Component is an analogue system so even though it can display 1080i if it is used to display HD content and that content has a protected path requirement the output will be downscaled or forced at DVD quality. This is the nature of HDMI/HDCP.

Don't blame manufacturers for content providers requirements.




Home Server: AMD Threadripper 1950X, 64GB, 56TB HDD, Define R6 Case, 10GbE, ESXi 6.7, UNRAID, NextPVR, Emby Server, Plex Server.
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195 posts

Master Geek


  # 243398 6-Aug-2009 11:20
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browned:
Don't blame manufacturers for content providers requirements.


I am not. 

I blame the manufacturers for:

  1. giving consumers incorrect information and indeed

  2. for simply not fully or adequately informing consumers.

What has that got to do with content providers?

Does the consumer have a right to not be misled and a right to be properly informed?  I believe so.

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