Panasonic admits plasma TV black level change

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huxtable

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Master Geek
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#57360 10-Feb-2010 22:50

Hi all,

Firstly, this is my first post (after lurking for a few weeks), so apologies if this HAS been mentioned... however, I haven't noticed it mentioned.

I've been frequenting geekzone recently, as I'm in the market for a fancy new TV. After lots of study, it looked like it was going to be a 50" Panasonic G or V model, until I came across this recent story.

Is it going to affect kiwi owners? Worst part about it all at the moment is the lack of definitive info Panasonic have given regarding the matter.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10447329-1.html?tag=mncol

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#297856 11-Feb-2010 08:26

Heard on BOL from Cnet last nite that Panasonic is not going to fix the problem. Reasoning. That those sets are not being sold anymore. Lucky they're not regulated like the car industry..

Regards,

Old3eyes

samwooff

219 posts

Master Geek

#297923 11-Feb-2010 13:00

There's several huuuge threads on AVS forum about this problem, I wasn't sure if this applied to NZ models as quite a few geekzone members have recently bought x/s/g/v10 tvs and no reported problems so far, though it doesn't appear to affect 100% of sets.
From what the americans have experienced, the problem occurs at around 100 hours, there is no quick fix short of trying to return your tv.
The better set up your plasma is; dark room, properly calibrated the more obvious the effect will be.
Panasonic's response to the issue seems to be fairly poor at the moment.
For a LOT of reading about it here's AVS's thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1167339

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robjg63

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#297929 11-Feb-2010 13:10

Mine (G10 50" bought last September) has done a hell of a lot more than 100 hours since last year and I still think the black looks very good - havent noticed any issues.
Son in law bought an expensive Sony 42" LCD at the same time last year and he was watching something on our TV the other day and commented on how black the blacks were.....

Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler

paradoxsm

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#297948 11-Feb-2010 13:58

Mine still works flawlessly and it's had a lot of use. Much better and stabler picture than even many newer sets even though it's only half-HD (720p) The colours are excellent and it adjusts to any video mode, even obscure ones through VGA instantly.

I had taken a few images of the dithering processes so I must take another look at some point.

Quidam

291 posts

Ultimate Geek

#299518 16-Feb-2010 15:19

I had a 720p Gen 8 Panny for about 5 years, and now have a 50 inch G series. I've not noticed black level quality reducing either in my old or new set. I also own a couple of LCD TV's and the Plasmas beat them hands-down for black levels, so it's all relative. Storm in a teacup as far as I'm concerned.

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richms

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#299526 16-Feb-2010 16:40

This has happened on CRTs forever virtually.

Other than when the manufacturer stuffs up like sony did on some monitors, it usually goes unnoticed. THe increase in current is to counter the ageing of the tube, same as the plasma ages since they are the same thing basically.

If its done right, you dont notice. Has anyone noticed properly? I would think that even if done pretty badly the picture would still be leaps ahead of any LCD I have seen for genuine black levels.

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fahrenheit

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#299638 16-Feb-2010 23:10

Well Panasonic's response is troubling to say the least.

On one hand they say that there is no issue to address and that this is perfectly normal behaviour and then say that they have adjusted it to be more gently aged in their 2010 models.

The issue is aggressive change in the black's brightness after an unreasonable amount of hours. Panasonic can't dismiss those people affected and then say that their decision to make that ageing more gentle in their 2010 models is just a natural improvement in the technologies development.

I've only just discovered this today after my precious HR36 CRT has decided that 8 years is all she's got.
So I'm not exactly thrilled with the idea of replacing it with a V10 now despite it being at the top of my list previously.

Panasonic's handling of the HD CRT 60Hz issue in this country was truely appauling and I don't want to taste that kind of customer service first-hand if there is a case to answer here. They will worm out of any obligations as best they can.

So whats the backup? Anyone have any cheap Kuros?

illicit

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#299678 17-Feb-2010 08:53

Pioneers panels are now made by Panasonic....... lol

(i know Pioneer probably deal with panel age differently than Panasonic, funny none the less.)

robjg63

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#299708 17-Feb-2010 10:27

...and Pioneer have stopped making Plasma Tvs

Paul Money (in Auckland still have some advertised on their website). Must be some of the last left. Apparently you cant get them anywhere in Aussie now - officially all stock gone.

Pioneer did indeed use the Panasonic panel - but their own electronics.

I'd say as an owner (probably about 600 hours on my G10) I cant see an issue (yet).

You will see a lot of people on Geekzone have bought G10/S10/V10 Panasonics in the last year or thereabouts and will have clocked up more hours than me - I cant say I have seen anyone report this issue - and we are the sort of people to gert picky about things like that. You should also remember that we seem to get slightly different models of the G10/S10 etc here. The US ones have Vieracast/internet connectivity etc and I think they are made in Mexico (and elsewhere). I gather the Eurpoean models are built somewhere else. My G10 (Sept 09) was made in China - I understand some were made in Japan - depended on the shipment. The current V10 (I believe) is sourced from Japan. There are also other plants and differing local variants with different features. Its quite possible that this isn't an issue on the models sold here. I found some other minor picky things reported in the USA about the G10 that are not issues in the NZ model G10.

Anyway - the article at the top of the post is dated a couple of weeks ago. If you are worried just wait a couple more weeks and check the manufacture date of any TV you are interested in. They dont exactly lie around for months before being sold. My TV had a factory build date less than 4 weeks prior to it arriving in my house. Maybe thats just JB HiFi turnaround.....

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fahrenheit

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#299722 17-Feb-2010 11:30

It sounds more like a software problem than a hardware one, so the firmware might be the deciding factor governing this behaviour.

However, I can't imagine that the part of the software that controls the ageing would be different across regions (unless you had different teams on different continents writing software for their respective models).

The sample-size for all of this is just woefully small unfortunately. Reports of G9, 10, 11 and 12 panels being affected = lots and lots of units out there with happy owners with huge miles on the clock.

People's lack of objective testing and basic observation skills need to be accounted for though (for every cloudy panel Sony/Samsung there are countless masses who just miss it completely).

It could be that peoples own pursuit of standards and excellence might be a contributing factor in all of this. The person who breaks in the display and uses display modes and settings that are held with high regard by the AV crowd may actually be exacerbating this problem. Whereas the average person who just uses the factory settings and forgets about it might never see the problem.

Unfortunately I'm not in the latter group and am predisposed to tinkering, so I'm pretty much screwed as I see it.

robjg63

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#299724 17-Feb-2010 11:40

fahrenheit: It sounds more like a software problem than a hardware one, so the firmware might be the deciding factor governing this behaviour.

However, I can't imagine that the part of the software that controls the ageing would be different across regions (unless you had different teams on different continents writing software for their respective models).

The sample-size for all of this is just woefully small unfortunately. Reports of G9, 10, 11 and 12 panels being affected = lots and lots of units out there with happy owners with huge miles on the clock.

People's lack of objective testing and basic observation skills need to be accounted for though (for every cloudy panel Sony/Samsung there are countless masses who just miss it completely).

It could be that peoples own pursuit of standards and excellence might be a contributing factor in all of this. The person who breaks in the display and uses display modes and settings that are held with high regard by the AV crowd may actually be exacerbating this problem. Whereas the average person who just uses the factory settings and forgets about it might never see the problem.

Unfortunately I'm not in the latter group and am predisposed to tinkering, so I'm pretty much screwed as I see it.

These are all fair points that you raise. I hope you dont drive yourself too crazy looking for the perfect display panel :-)

Choosing technology these days can be quite difficult. So many makes models and specs...and dare I say, too much information/feedback about them. I have learned that the more popular a product is, generally there will be more bad feedback about it. Mostly, people use the internet to complain/find solutions to problems - so it often tends to give the slewed impression of a poor product when often the opposite may be true.

Good luck.

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fahrenheit

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#299725 17-Feb-2010 11:47

Yeah absolutely. I've come to learn that consumerism comes with a healthy dose of compromises.

The problem I have is that I'm coming of 4 years of viewing the finest consumer level CRT ever put to market (Sony HR36) and the blacks are just unrivaled by any flatpanel out there.
It was always something I was prepared for, but the potential for the blacks to diminish after a certain amount of hours (and sharply) has me spooked to say the least.

fahrenheit

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#299800 17-Feb-2010 14:46

Ok, say we look at this issue as an undeniable and unavoidable truth that one day, be it sooner or later will affect the TV, where does it leave us?

* Pioneer

Not many left and we can safely say $6000 for a new 50" and add hundreds more ($600?) for the stand which isn't included in the price. This is just a monitor with no tuner and no speakers. This is a significant price step up from a 50" V10.

* Samsung

Well documented whining noise and 50Hz artifacting issues. Two totally unacceptable flaws.

* LG

Muddy colour right out of the box and lack of black for the life of the unit. Overall just very average to compared to the performance and features of the other two.

So there we have it. Despite the worst case senario for the Panasonics occuring, the problem has (in my book) less impact for overall enjoyment than the others on the market (barring the Kuro).
The Kuro puts itself in a less tangible position based on its price of entry.

If there is a serious case to answer, Panasonic will be called to account and will be required to make reparations. If you have two identical units with similar hours on the clock and one deviates from the norm to an unreasonable degree, then this is covered under the Consumer Guarantees Act as its not matching a demonstation sample.

I can't afford a Kuro and I can't see anything that matches the V10 (other than the G10) in all other respects to features and performance for the price, so I have to concede that its probably the only option.

samwooff

219 posts

Master Geek

#299868 17-Feb-2010 18:18

+1 to fahrenheit, you summed it up nicely.
This is almost making me want to start considering LCDs again.
It's been almost 2 years since the last kuro came out, I don't care about 3D, ultrathin panels or web widgets just make a tv that comes close to it without costing more than my car.

Masterpiece

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#299938 17-Feb-2010 21:16

I lack of knowledge of display systems leads some to over claim issues or non issues in all sorts of areas in imagery.
I quote myself from another forum

I don't see this as a major issue, I think this is because I might understand the nature of life...ie all things get old and decay....including us

Anyway, the main issue is people claiming issues when not understanding what is happening.
It is clear that Panasonic has stepped the voltage drive to account for panel decay, obviously the issue for some is that it is/can be noticable...at first, I suspect those who set the panels up correctly with calibration may actually notice the change more than those who don't. However dispite this, decay will take care of the blackpoint levels ...in time of course...

Half life decay means. That the Rated hours is where the panel contrast will be half that of new, the decay rate tends to follow a log curve in shape. This means in the first 1hour the curve is near virtical, after 100~200 hours the curve is braking away and the panel pixels and lighting system settles, ie breakin period. After that the curve rolls off fairly sharply. This initial period can roll off peak contrast by a considerable amount and applies to all products, but it doesnt just effect the top end, it effects the whole scale from Black to white, thus the stepped voltage drive system that resets the drives once the curve begins to flattern out.

Hope that helps explain what is happening, it is not a fault, excepting for that later models I believe they use smaller increments so it is less noticable.

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