The Herald poll on 3G networks...

Forums › Spark New Zealand (including Skinny and BigPipe) › The Herald poll on 3G networks...

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#179588 23-Nov-2008 11:45

freitasm:
PaulBrislen: I work for Vodafone. OF COURSE I'm going to be pro-Vodafone. That's my job. Simply telling people that "Vodafone sucks" over and over isn't really good journalism.

And that's where you can't understand things: this is not journalism. This is a forum where real people post their ideas and feelings.

Until you understand this and think this is only another avenue for PR then things won't work ok.

But Mauricio, you maintain that you have no bias when in fact you do. You have repeatedly told me that Geekzone is a place where people can come and discuss things but that you won't let them flame or attack and I'm sorry but you do let that happen. You've set the tone for debate here. It's your website and you repeatedly breach your own rules regarding this kind of behaviour.

You talk about respect but that's a two-way street.

Paul Brislen
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Vodafone

http://forum.vodafone.co.nz

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#179590 23-Nov-2008 11:52

PaulBrislen: But Mauricio, you maintain that you have no bias when in fact you do. You have repeatedly told me that Geekzone is a place where people can come and discuss things but that you won't let them flame or attack and I'm sorry but you do let that happen. You've set the tone for debate here. It's your website and you repeatedly breach your own rules regarding this kind of behaviour.

You talk about respect but that's a two-way street.

I think you missed the part where we ask users to attack ideas, not people - and your post now does exactly that by attacking me directly. When I post something about Vodafone you come with this "you breach your own rules". I think you have to leave this to myself and moderators to judge.

Second, when I - or anyone else posting in the forums - point out some flaw in the "speak" we are not lacking respect. We are actually bringing the points to discussion. No one is here to diss a company or another.

This leads to my third point: when we say we don't want flaming it means we don't want people using this as their soapbox. We want discussions, not trolling.

VFNZPaulBrislen

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#179593 23-Nov-2008 12:04

freitasm:
PaulBrislen: But Mauricio, you maintain that you have no bias when in fact you do. You have repeatedly told me that Geekzone is a place where people can come and discuss things but that you won't let them flame or attack and I'm sorry but you do let that happen. You've set the tone for debate here. It's your website and you repeatedly breach your own rules regarding this kind of behaviour.

You talk about respect but that's a two-way street.

I think you missed the part where we ask users to attack ideas, not people - and your post now does exactly that by attacking me directly. When I post something about Vodafone you come with this "you breach your own rules". I think you have to leave this to myself and moderators to judge.

Second, when I - or anyone else posting in the forums - point out some flaw in the "speak" we are not lacking respect. We are actually bringing the points to discussion. No one is here to diss a company or another.

This leads to my third point: when we say we don't want flaming it means we don't want people using this as their soapbox. We want discussions, not trolling.

Mauricio, if you posted something that added to the particular debate I wouldn't have a problem. But take this thread - your first post is: "Just the old marketing tactics. And people buy it." which isn't exactly a great help. Then you say "No, I don't think they are "telling the truth". "3G" is not WCDMA only - and the way they talk they imply that only when Telecom new WCDMA network is up they can compare, which is not the case.

Also because even their "fast" network is not available everywhere - only a part of their HSDPA services is actually able to deliver 7.2Mbps currently, with the rest being 3.6Mbps and down.

It's all that double speak that annoys me. They hide things from uninformed users. "

Which adds some points but is again biased. Nowhere do you discuss Telecom's outrageous claims ... it's an attack, nothing more.

I don't mind that - that's why I come here to explain the situation from Vodafone's point of view and now you tell me even that isn't welcome.

I come here in my role as external communications manager to explain Vodafone's position and to help where I can. It's the exact same reason I go on Twitter, on GP Forums, on Biggie, on Trade Me Communities (shudder) and anywhere else anyone wants to have a conversation about Vodafone.

But don't expect me not to be pro-Vodafone.

That's my job.

Paul Brislen
Head of Corporate Communications
Vodafone

http://forum.vodafone.co.nz

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#179596 23-Nov-2008 12:08

PaulBrislen: Which adds some points but is again biased. Nowhere do you discuss Telecom's outrageous claims ... it's an attack, nothing more.

I am not discussing the "Telecom's outrageous claims" because this thread seems to be about the "Vodafone's outrageous claims".

PaulBrislen: I don't mind that - that's why I come here to explain the situation from Vodafone's point of view and now you tell me even that isn't welcome.

No, I am not saying it's not welcome. I am saying that explaining Vodafone's point of view doesn't include attacking myself. This is not welcome.

PaulBrislen: I come here in my role as external communications manager to explain Vodafone's position and to help where I can. It's the exact same reason I go on Twitter, on GP Forums, on Biggie, on Trade Me Communities (shudder) and anywhere else anyone wants to have a conversation about Vodafone.

But don't expect me not to be pro-Vodafone.

No, I wouldn't expect that.

VFNZPaulBrislen

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#179599 23-Nov-2008 12:12

freitasm:
PaulBrislen: Which adds some points but is again biased. Nowhere do you discuss Telecom's outrageous claims ... it's an attack, nothing more.

I am not discussing the "Telecom's outrageous claims" because this thread seems to be about the "Vodafone's outrageous claims".

PaulBrislen: I don't mind that - that's why I come here to explain the situation from Vodafone's point of view and now you tell me even that isn't welcome.

No, I am not saying it's not welcome. I am saying that explaining Vodafone's point of view doesn't include attacking myself. This is not welcome.

PaulBrislen: I come here in my role as external communications manager to explain Vodafone's position and to help where I can. It's the exact same reason I go on Twitter, on GP Forums, on Biggie, on Trade Me Communities (shudder) and anywhere else anyone wants to have a conversation about Vodafone.

But don't expect me not to be pro-Vodafone.

No, I wouldn't expect that.

Good. Then I'll go back to making breakfast for the children.

Although it might have to be lunch now.

Paul Brislen
Head of Corporate Communications
Vodafone

http://forum.vodafone.co.nz

Tockly

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#179600 23-Nov-2008 12:19

Wow... Do we have a couple of people that need some "time out"...

ajw

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#179629 23-Nov-2008 14:03

PaulBrislen:
freitasm:
zocster:
cokemaster:
Complete and utter rubbish. Disappointing.
Would have expected better.

It's a cut throat business, so I guess Vodafone even though is telling the 'truth' it is rather a nasty campaign. Getting OT a bit aren't we, thought we're talking about the poll

No, I don't think they are "telling the truth". "3G" is not WCDMA only - and the way they talk they imply that only when Telecom new WCDMA network is up they can compare, which is not the case.

Also because even their "fast" network is not available everywhere - only a part of their HSDPA services is actually able to deliver 7.2Mbps currently, with the rest being 3.6Mbps and down.

It's all that double speak that annoys me. They hide things from uninformed users.

I think your bias is showing again Mauricio. Nobody has said the 7.2 capability is available everywhere. It isn't. We haven't even launched it in a marketing sense BECAUSE it's not available everywhere. But it is available and customers are using it.

Telecom is the one that ruled its existing network out. Paul Reynolds described it as a technological culdesac. Telecom is now writing off its investment in it (take a look at this year's financials). There won't be any more money spent on the network - it's all going into the new network and that's as it should be.

So if Telecom can exclude it, so can we.

This is what Reynolds said in the initial press statement:

“The possibilities are endless: bidding on an online auction from your bach at Raglan; downloading music on a chairlift at Mt Ruapehu; video calling from Hokitika to a mate in Christchurch; or instant email on your mobile while on the move in a small town or big city, anywhere in New Zealand,” said Dr Reynolds."

The word "possibilities" implies that you can't do any of those things today. Vodafone offers all of that and has done since 2005.

I think your bias is showing again Mauricio.

EDIT: answering Mauricio's second post:

I said all of that when asked by the reporter. That they didn't put it in the story isn't exactly something I can control. As I said, and as our marketing says if you read it, putting aside Telecom's now terminal network, Vodafone has the largest and fastest network in the land.

Cheers

Paul

(second edit to put back line taken out by accident)

And I guarantee you LTE (Long Term Evolution) will also not live up to the speeds that have been quoted from this technology.

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bbman

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#179710 23-Nov-2008 20:53

Comm Comm will have field day here! Come on Paul and team at Vodafone marketing, making unfactual clains in order to misinform & to cause confusion is really a little dumb, although your field sales staff are really good at that... opps did i just say that!!!

Telecom deserves a blast and Comm Comm investigation every now and then, this time it's Vodafone's turn.. Get the facts straight before making stupid claims in your advertising. Real world proves you wrong every time and unfortunately this time the proof will be in the pudding!

"And I guarantee you LTE (Long Term Evolution) will also not live up to the speeds that have been quoted from this technology"

I would agree with that statement but by the time this comes to fruition the back haul and internal networks will be far better. Personally i believe the difference between Vodafone & Telecoms 3G networks will be the quality of build and infrastructure. Once both are in place theoritical speeds will mean little, real world experience will be what makes the champion. From my slightly biased point of view plus experience with both carriers, i think Telecom will have the edge come end of 09, thats there plan i am sure.

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NonprayingMantis

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#179722 23-Nov-2008 21:29

So Paul,

Your claim from the ad

"vodafone has the fastest and largest 3G network in NZ"

Forget speed for a moment (the claim was fastest and largest)

does Vodafone's current 3G network have greater coverage than Telecom's EVDO 3G network?

If the answer is yes, please provide a link to vodafone website or press release that indicates greater coverage than 80% of population on 3G Mobile broadband.

http://www.telecom.co.nz/content/0,8748,200499-201927,00.html

Mobile data coverage

Mobile Broadband
We cover around 80% of where Kiwis live work and play. You can view details of our Mobile Broadband coverage here. All Mobile Broadband coverage has recently been upgraded to Mobile Broadband rev a, enabling a fast download and upload experience, so you really can work away from the office.

Direct from Telecom's website, they claim 80% coverage for Mobile Broadband. It shouldn't be too hard for you to find the equivalent page on Voda's website where they give a number higher than 80%, should it?

last quote I saw about voda was from July 08 (linked below), saying around 67% 3G coverage. Have you really rolled out that much more coverage in the last 5 months?

http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/netw/DC99F1A9D1E91C36CC25747C0013F828

From article:
Vodafone’s 3G broadband service is currently available to around 63% of the population. By 2010 it will cover 97% — the same reach as the existing 2G network.

manhinli

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#179728 23-Nov-2008 21:43

Here is a billboard I took a picture of outside Botany Town Centre (this has also been posted on their own forum, but I decided to also to post it here for you guys to make your minds up)

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bbman

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#179743 23-Nov-2008 22:11

Largest and fastest 3G network..... hmmmm not down my way its not!!!!

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#179756 23-Nov-2008 23:11

Judging by responses in this thread, they are committed to delivering spin (and if that fails, attack the person not the idea) rather than results.

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NonprayingMantis

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#179761 23-Nov-2008 23:30

manhinli: Here is a billboard I took a picture of outside Botany Town Centre (this has also been posted on their own forum, but I decided to also to post it here for you guys to make your minds up)

nice bit of text in the bottom corner saying 'based on WCDMA coverage'

How twattish is it to say "we have the best widgit in the country....if you only include our version of the widgit in the comparisons, and exclude other people's far superior versions of widgits"

Of course white text on a white background isn't well known for standing out too well either.

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#179765 23-Nov-2008 23:35

You have to wonder if thats by design. You can hardly read it on screen, you have to wonder if anyone will be able to read it when they are driving.

Of course, this isn't the first time they've done this. I remember advertising out by the airport with similar stuff - only noticed because we were quite close to the sign and wasn't driving.

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#179767 23-Nov-2008 23:36

PaulBrislen:
freitasm:
PaulBrislen: I think your bias is showing again Mauricio.

Everyone can have bias. My bias comes from a poor service Vodafone offered, poor coverage, poor response to my calls to their help desk.

In this specific case my bias is on the consumer side who is blinded by Vodafone's doublespeak.

I am actually tired of users that come around and say "you have bias". I have been accused of been paid by Vodafone many times, for trying to explain to some users why they were wrong - and every time you oppose someone's views then you are "biased".

It's easy for Vodafone to come here and say we are biased when someone points out something wrong. I am actually sick and tired of this behaviour from you as a representative of this company here in my forums.

Mauricio, you and I have talked repeatedly about journalism and about bias and I'm sorry but when all you can add to a discussion on 3G networks is to repeat off-topic arguments about service, coverage and responses to your needs, yes it comes across as bias.

Everyone has it - the trick is to ADMIT IT and put it out there for all to see.

I work for Vodafone. OF COURSE I'm going to be pro-Vodafone. That's my job. Simply telling people that "Vodafone sucks" over and over isn't really good journalism.

Paul, aren't Telecom making a complaint to the Commerce commison about Vodafones advertising, because telecoms existing 3G network is faster(or as fast) and has a higher coverage than vodafone. Yet the vodafone adverts clearly advertise that Vodafones network has more coverage, which isn't the case and could be misleading. This is telecoms EXISTING network, not their new network. Telecoms NEW network will also have greater coverage than vodafones. I am unsure why Vodafone are discussing a network that isn't yet relevent to the advert. I am no fan of telecom/Yahoo/xtra or whatever they call themselves (identity problem I think), but I think they have got a good point.

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