Should Telecom credit $2000 for 70MB roaming charges?

Forums › Spark New Zealand (including Skinny and BigPipe) › Should Telecom credit $2000 for 70MB roaming charges?

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1598 posts

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#591430 6-Mar-2012 21:16

johnr:
codyc1515: Of course if he did get this message then there is no excuse. Of course he could argue that he never?received?the message.

This can be checked including time and date handset accepted the SMS

John

Just because the phone accepted it did not mean that it was acknowledged. It may have been deleted due to too many messages or something similar.

johnr

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#591434 6-Mar-2012 21:28

codyc1515:
johnr:
codyc1515: Of course if he did get this message then there is no excuse. Of course he could argue that he never?received?the message.

This can be checked including time and date handset accepted the SMS

John

Just because the phone accepted it did not mean that it was acknowledged. It may have been deleted due to too many messages or something similar.

Why would a handset delete a new incoming SMS?

Now you are just making random things up

John

codyc1515

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#591436 6-Mar-2012 21:30

johnr:
codyc1515:
johnr:
codyc1515: Of course if he did get this message then there is no excuse. Of course he could argue that he never?received?the message.

This can be checked including time and date handset accepted the SMS

John

Just because the phone accepted it did not mean that it was acknowledged. It may have been deleted due to too many messages or something similar.

Why would a handset delete a new incoming SMS?

Now you are just making random things up

John

Sometimes when the memory gets full on older phones.

insane

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#591439 6-Mar-2012 21:44

freitasm: In the interest of this thread I've decided to fly to Sydney, to check what SMS Telecom sends to its customers. It is:

"Welcome to Telecom. NZ rates DO NOT apply abroad for info see telecomroaming.co.nz or call free from mobile +6433710866 To top-up call *333"

[Joking, I am here on a trip sponsored by Intel].

The 2degrees text message I got was even more direct, even detailed the cost for calls and data the moment I turned my mobile on in Australia.

Inspired me to head on over and pick up a local SIM card before I left the airport.

johnr

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#591441 6-Mar-2012 21:46

codyc1515:
johnr:
codyc1515:
johnr:
codyc1515: Of course if he did get this message then there is no excuse. Of course he could argue that he never?received?the message.

This can be checked including time and date handset accepted the SMS

John

Just because the phone accepted it did not mean that it was acknowledged. It may have been deleted due to too many messages or something similar.

Why would a handset delete a new incoming SMS?

Now you are just making random things up

John

Sometimes when the memory gets full on older phones.

When handset memory is full the handset advises the network that SMS memory is full,

This sets a flag on the HLR profile for that MSISDN " mobile subscriber SMS memory full = Y " at this point the SMS router / SMSC will not push any further SMS to the handset and store any further incoming SMS untill the handset advises the network there is now space for more SMS

" mobile subscriber SMS memory full = N " At this point the SMSR / SMSC will push thru the stored SMS to the subscribers MSISDN

This has gone now way off topic sorry but the networks are much smarter and do not delete SMS unless expiry time for the SMS is reached

John

codyc1515

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#591442 6-Mar-2012 21:47

johnr:
codyc1515:
johnr:
codyc1515:
johnr:
codyc1515: Of course if he did get this message then there is no excuse. Of course he could argue that he never?received?the message.

This can be checked including time and date handset accepted the SMS

John

Just because the phone accepted it did not mean that it was acknowledged. It may have been deleted due to too many messages or something similar.

Why would a handset delete a new incoming SMS?

Now you are just making random things up

John

Sometimes when the memory gets full on older phones.

When handset memory is full the handset advises the network that SMS memory is full,

This sets a flag on the HLR profile for he MSISDN " mobile subscriber SMS memory full = Y " at this point the SMS router / SMSC will not push any further SMS to the handset and store any further incoming SMS untill the handset advises the network there is now space for more SMS

" mobile subscriber SMS memory full = N " At this point the SMSR / SMSC will push thru the stored SMS to the subscribers MSISDN

This has gone now way off topic sorry but the networks are much smarter and do not delete SMS unless expiry time for the SMS is reached

John

OK, thanks for the in-depth explanation, I was not sure.

johnr

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#591444 6-Mar-2012 21:55

insane:
freitasm: In the interest of this thread I've decided to fly to Sydney, to check what SMS Telecom sends to its customers. It is:

"Welcome to Telecom. NZ rates DO NOT apply abroad for info see telecomroaming.co.nz or call free from mobile +6433710866 To top-up call *333"

[Joking, I am here on a trip sponsored by Intel].

The 2degrees text message I got was even more direct, even detailed the cost for calls and data the moment I turned my mobile on in Australia.

Inspired me to head on over and pick up a local SIM card before I left the airport.

?

Here are the SMS I got when I landed in Hong Kong a few weeks back

John

Quic Broadband

Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.

timestyles

424 posts

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#591453 6-Mar-2012 22:31

johnr:
codyc1515:
johnr:
codyc1515: Of course if he did get this message then there is no excuse. Of course he could argue that he never?received?the message.

This can be checked including time and date handset accepted the SMS

John

Just because the phone accepted it did not mean that it was acknowledged. It may have been deleted due to too many messages or something similar.

Why would a handset delete a new incoming SMS?

Now you are just making random things up

John

I've had cellphones delete incoming texts before they've been read. How did I know that they arrived? A message was displayed briefly on screen "Text from Bob". Couldn't find it in the inbox. Happened to a Nokia 2630 I had, so I bought a new one. New firmware. Same problem. Shame really, that is a very light phone, since I keep it in my shirt pocket.

codyc1515

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#591454 6-Mar-2012 22:34

timestyles:
johnr:
codyc1515:
johnr:
codyc1515: Of course if he did get this message then there is no excuse. Of course he could argue that he never?received?the message.

This can be checked including time and date handset accepted the SMS

John

Just because the phone accepted it did not mean that it was acknowledged. It may have been deleted due to too many messages or something similar.

Why would a handset delete a new incoming SMS?

Now you are just making random things up

John

I've had cellphones delete incoming texts before they've been read. How did I know that they arrived? A message was displayed briefly on screen "Text from Bob". Couldn't find it in the inbox. Happened to a Nokia 2630 I had, so I bought a new one. New firmware. Same problem. Shame really, that is a very light phone, since I keep it in my shirt pocket.

It was the nokia phones that I was referencing too.

timestyles

424 posts

Ultimate Geek

#591458 6-Mar-2012 22:45

One thing I'd love to know is whether Australians come to NZ and get $2000 data roaming bills. If they do, it would imply that the NZ telcos are hypocritical.

Have a read of this article (it's 6 months old) about roaming in Godzone:

http://www.ausbt.com.au/vodafone-australia-slashes-new-zealand-data-roaming-prices

"However, travellers must contact Vodafone and request the special rates before travelling, otherwise they'll still be charged the standard $10 per megabyte fee."

...a steal at only $10,000 a Gig.

Yep, it looks like they are hypocritical.

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

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#591470 6-Mar-2012 23:59

timestyles: One thing I'd love to know is whether Australians come to NZ and get $2000 data roaming bills. If they do, it would imply that the NZ telcos are hypocritical.

Have a read of this article (it's 6 months old) about roaming in Godzone:

http://www.ausbt.com.au/vodafone-australia-slashes-new-zealand-data-roaming-prices

"However, travellers must contact Vodafone and request the special rates before travelling, otherwise they'll still be charged the standard $10 per megabyte fee."

...a steal at only $10,000 a Gig.

Yep, it looks like they are hypocritical.

could you explain a bit further why this is hypocritical?

johnr

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#591478 7-Mar-2012 06:32

timestyles:
johnr:
codyc1515:
johnr:
codyc1515: Of course if he did get this message then there is no excuse. Of course he could argue that he never?received?the message.

This can be checked including time and date handset accepted the SMS

John

Just because the phone accepted it did not mean that it was acknowledged. It may have been deleted due to too many messages or something similar.

Why would a handset delete a new incoming SMS?

Now you are just making random things up

John

I've had cellphones delete incoming texts before they've been read. ?How did I know that they arrived? ?A message was displayed briefly on screen "Text from Bob". ?Couldn't find it in the inbox. ?Happened to a Nokia 2630 I had, so I bought a new one. ?New firmware. ?Same problem. ?Shame really, that is a very light phone, since I keep it in my shirt pocket.?

These sound like flash SMS or if it's a faulty phone it's not meant to work that way!

jpollock

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#591491 7-Mar-2012 08:12

There is still a HUGE difference between a lossy notification and acceptance. There are more and more devices that make use of the data network which are unable to receive text messages - the iPad being an obvious one (MiFi, GPRS Modems, being others). Add to that the default behaviour which is to connect and download/upload data in the background, and you've got a recipe for large charges.

Imagine having a Windows laptop with a Vodem. You forgot to turn your modem off when airborne. The instant you land, it connects and starts pulling down a Windows update. 200megs, $2000, no user interaction whatsoever. Then add in your iDevices, your wife's iDevices and your kids' iDevices.

The carriers need to move to positive acceptance of charges. Even saying $10/MB doesn't mean anything to people because they don't know how many web pages that is. How much data is a Facebook update? I don't know, do you? I only know that the twitter main page is 2MB because it was in the news this week. How big is an email? A picture?

This is caused by a couple of things:

First, people think in Gigabytes, not Megabytes, now. Our main accounts are fixed line and we don't have to track each megabyte. Devices encourage this too. Try finding out how much data each of your PCs has sent in the last month and correlate that with the amount the carrier says you've sent. Better yet, search Geekzone for all the posts where people are trying to do just that.

Second, carriers encourage not knowing. Since carriers are all about the data bundles, they don't tell you where each megabyte goes. You don't get a bill saying, "Feb 1, 2012 facebook.com 100MB $0.10". Since you don't get a bill, you have nothing to measure against.

People on geekzone aren't hit by this failure. We read about these things and instantly go to our devices and hit "data roaming -> OFF!".

The broader customer base doesn't have any way to measure their usage, and units are meaningless to them.

I would recommend something like:

This network charges $10/MB of data. This is 100x your typical charge of 0.10/MB. To provide you an indication of how much using the data network will cost, we have provided some estimated charges below. Your charges will likely be substantially higher.

"Sending an email using a built in mail client - at least $1.00"
"Sending an email using a web mail client - at least $20.00"
"Uploading a picture to Facebook - at least $50.00"
"Sending a PXT - at least $10"
"Receiving a PXT - at least $10"
"Each tweet - at least $40.00"
"Windows update - at least $2000"
"Book on Kindle - at least $20"
"Song on iTunes - at least $50"
"Movie on iTunes - at least $8000"

To obtain access to the data network, please txt "YES", to 1231234, select "YES" below, or call 12341231.

That would make me basically happy. Even better would be to allow customers to do data roaming prepaid. No one, and I mean no one, wants an unbounded liability on their account.

---
http://blog.jason.pollock.ca

sbiddle

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#591495 7-Mar-2012 08:35

timestyles:
johnr:
codyc1515:
johnr:
codyc1515: Of course if he did get this message then there is no excuse. Of course he could argue that he never?received?the message.

This can be checked including time and date handset accepted the SMS

John

Just because the phone accepted it did not mean that it was acknowledged. It may have been deleted due to too many messages or something similar.

Why would a handset delete a new incoming SMS?

Now you are just making random things up

John

I've had cellphones delete incoming texts before they've been read. How did I know that they arrived? A message was displayed briefly on screen "Text from Bob". Couldn't find it in the inbox. Happened to a Nokia 2630 I had, so I bought a new one. New firmware. Same problem. Shame really, that is a very light phone, since I keep it in my shirt pocket.

Somebody is clearly sending you Class 0 Flash SMS's. There is nothing wrong witb the phone - this is how these messages are supposed to be handled.

alienwithin

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#591723 7-Mar-2012 13:47

to be honest the story reminds me of internet scams, or the still ongoing asian lady constantly ringing up to say that we have a virus on our computer. roaming charges have been in the news, on fair go, on target for quite a few years and yet people still pay no attention to the messages they do get on their phones when over seas. Now, if my 70 year old parents can bother to pick up the phone, call telecom and ask them what charges apply in such and such country when they travel, then surely other people can as well.

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