Commerce Commission lays charges on Voda for FibreX

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97 posts

Master Geek
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#1997010 16-Apr-2018 13:27

noroad:

Its about time, calling an HFC network "Fibre X" is a blatant attempt to confuse the general public into thinking they will get a FTTH fibre service when they re getting a co-ax copper service. If the Vodafone marketing was in any way valid then nearly all xDSL services could be called "Fibre Z" as the DSLAM/MSAN is almost always fibre fed.

Do people really think that co-ax and DOCSIS systems are the same as copper DSL?

Jaxar

383 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 129

#1997024 16-Apr-2018 13:35

Please take note of my personal bias towards VF when reading this post. Please also understand these are purely my own personal thoughts and in no way represent VF.

Geekzone to me is a group of people which have a number of qulities. Qualities we tend to like and respect in each other even when they disagree around specifics. We tend to be a technically educated group, a group with an interest in this telecomunications field, a group who just likes to call things specifically what they or some combination of these qualities.

Being a person who fits these qualities, anger around the branding makes perfect sense to me. Working at VF has taught me a lot about the different skill sets and personality types this company and the companies I belonged to beforehand (x-ihug) need to be sucessful.
Marketing and branding decisions tend to be aiming at a segment that is not me and often not Geekzone in my opinion. A Geekzone member might see an obvious mistake being made by VF here in the branding. Time may well vindicate them. Given my bias and my experience I ask the question that was a decision made to call it FibreX simply because to most people Fibre means faster internet than they had before.
Does Coax HFC vs Chorus Fibre or other LFC fibre mean something completely different to you and me yeah sure but not to my parents and not to a lot of my friends. Not to the people I speak to when I feel I need a perspective closer to a larger portion of the NZ internet cosumer.

Those are my 2 cents. That and I have found the discussion here interesting and engaging. Thanks all.

One thing I have learned is I communicate best with the analytical types but a vast majority of our customers don't think in the way I do. I've seen VF do a number of things over the years that upfront don't make sense to me but have been

Please note: I have a professional bias towards Vodafone.

gbwelly

1263 posts

Uber Geek
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#1997048 16-Apr-2018 13:51

thegeekboy:

Do people really think that co-ax and DOCSIS systems are the same as copper DSL?

They share more in common than they do to fibre.

JimmyH

2898 posts

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#1997241 16-Apr-2018 19:08

thegeekboy:

Do people really think that co-ax and DOCSIS systems are the same as copper DSL?

Most people wouldn't have a clue, or know what either of these things mean. All they know is that heard about Fibre, and signed up because VF's glossy brochure said fast and had the word fibre in it. Which VF knew, and did deliberately to dupe them and cash in on word recognition.

I don't necessarily wish VF ill per se. But I deplore this type of deceptive practice that preys on uninformed people to mislead them and part them from their cash. It needs to be stopped. Heavy handedly if necessary. The Commerce Commission was right to take action, and VF deserves to take a hit for what it did.

frednz

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#1997252 16-Apr-2018 19:35

Jaxar:

snip

Given my bias and my experience I ask the question that was a decision made to call it FibreX simply because to most people Fibre means faster internet than they had before.

I guess that's a good theory, but why would people think the term "Fibre" means faster internet than they had before?

If it's because people were thinking of the ultra-fast fibre broadband being installed around the country by Chorus, then don't you think the "FibreX" term could be a bit deceptive?

But, in any event, FibreX is pretty fast and would be suitable for most people so I don't think Vodafone needed to confuse people by using the term FibreX.

gaddman

224 posts

Master Geek
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#1997268 16-Apr-2018 20:12

gbwelly:

thegeekboy:

Do people really think that co-ax and DOCSIS systems are the same as copper DSL?

They share more in common than they do to fibre.

Because they both have a metal cable for the last mile? If so, that's a pretty simplistic comparison of the technical aspects. The Vodafone HFC network uses NG-PON2, which is the evolution of the GPON standard (used in the LFC networks). Both fibre and HFC provide speeds up to 1Gbps (@ layer 2), both give those speeds independent of distance from cabinet, both have a GigE interface to your home network (ie they terminate on an ONT/Cable Modem separate to your router). And you can't really compare a bit of aluminium coax with twisted-pair copper designed to carry 4kHz voice signals.

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Jaxar

383 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 129

#1997523 17-Apr-2018 09:06

frednz:

I guess that's a good theory, but why would people think the term "Fibre" means faster internet than they had before?

Well if I asked somebody here I would expect an answer ranging from pretty technical to a reference to fibre optic cables and maybe lasers. Basically an answer on what it actually is.

If you more or less don't care about that stuff then it leaves what does fibre do for me. For most it means faster internet. This has other frustrations others have alluded too with creating new choke points around wifi and CPE but thats a fun digression from your question. When I talk to people about fibre I try to talk about how fibre optic cable doesn't tend to corrode like copper or that even if it did its a free install of new cabling to your property. Given the pain I used to see customers go through with frequent disconnection issues due to old cabling this aspect really resonates with me.

frednz:

If it's because people were thinking of the ultra-fast fibre broadband being installed around the country by Chorus, then don't you think the "FibreX" term could be a bit deceptive?

I'm afraid my personal answer may be a bit frustrating. I actively decided to not personally get hung up on these kinds of questions a few years ago. This was a personal decision I made a few years ago after ending up stressed over some internet drama. While I don't mean to belittle this discussion as such it was lame internet drama at the time that lead to this decision. I prefer to stress more over the aspects of my life I directly affect.

It boils down to I find lots of perspectives interesting and with merit and am glad we have a couple of bodies that get to make these decisions.

They may not always make the best decisions in hindsight but they give consumers and business a guide on how to expect our laws to be interpreted and enforced.

But, in any event, FibreX is pretty fast and would be suitable for most people so I don't think Vodafone needed to confuse people by using the term FibreX.

Please note: I have a professional bias towards Vodafone.

danza

112 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 45

#1998249 18-Apr-2018 07:20

gaddman:
gbwelly:

thegeekboy:

Do people really think that co-ax and DOCSIS systems are the same as copper DSL?

They share more in common than they do to fibre.

Because they both have a metal cable for the last mile? If so, that's a pretty simplistic comparison of the technical aspects. The Vodafone HFC network uses NG-PON2, which is the evolution of the GPON standard (used in the LFC networks). Both fibre and HFC provide speeds up to 1Gbps (@ layer 2), both give those speeds independent of distance from cabinet, both have a GigE interface to your home network (ie they terminate on an ONT/Cable Modem separate to your router). And you can't really compare a bit of aluminium coax with twisted-pair copper designed to carry 4kHz voice signals.

Do you know what's the upstream setup are like or if they are using D3.1/OFDM for upstream already?

In some cases, with digital channels, gigabit capable downstream channels and being compatible to D3, the HFC plant only has 4x 64QAM upstream channel with usable data speed of ~108Mbps for upload. Which means it only has around 108Mbps to be shared with every household on the node.

And they have to increase the upstream frequency from 5-42Mhz/low split, to mid/5~65Mhz (~210Mbps) or high split/5~200Mhz for return path along with D3.1 OFDM upstream in order to get faster upload speed, which is a huge pain since they have to upgrade the HFC plant too.

Or they have to increase the usable frequency range to 1.2Ghz and beyond to ensure enough capacity for downstream and upstream.

Jaxar

383 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 129

#1998259 18-Apr-2018 08:11

Hey all,

Just to clarify somebody pointed out to me in my last post I forgot to include the quote tags around the last part of frednz statement which was,

frednz:

But, in any event, FibreX is pretty fast and would be suitable for most people so I don't think Vodafone needed to confuse people by using the term FibreX.

Just to clarify for anybody who might take that statement out of the context of the previous post I was responding too. This was a direct quote from frednz and does not match my personal opinion which was outlined in the previous paragraphs.

Please note: I have a professional bias towards Vodafone.

Oblivian

7345 posts

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#1999153 19-Apr-2018 09:53

Enable have entered the fold.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/103185545/enable-networks-welcomes-commerce-commission-targeting-vodafone

danza

112 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 45

#2000635 22-Apr-2018 13:21

Guys I've found the latest Vodafone FibreX deployment hardware that ensures cable internet to be as good as UFB

Just plug the cable modem to the coax output and users will be able to enjoy really fast internet.

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Oblivian

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#2009703 8-May-2018 08:56

I'm yet to get a still. But the signage board on Cranford in CHC has a Chorus advert for Ultra fast internet with the slogan (similar to) "Don't settle for imitations, Demand Ultrafast FIBRE provided internet"

Which I thought was a little tongue in cheek toward this perhaps.

quickymart

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#2032750 9-Jun-2018 21:17

I realise I'm a bit late to the party here but the Commerce Commission court case was mentioned in this month's Consumer magazine.

https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/vodafone-facing-charges-for-fibrex-ads

xlinknz

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#2033847 11-Jun-2018 19:00

Has anyone heard how the 22 May 2018 Auckland District Court session on this went ?

antoniosk

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#2077340 22-Aug-2018 12:16

And on it goes:

https://comcom.govt.nz/news-and-media/media-releases/2018/vodafone-faces-charges-for-billing-customers-after-contract-finished

Summary below:

The Commerce Commission has laid 10 charges against Vodafone New Zealand Limited (Vodafone) alleging it made false representations in invoices sent to its customers.

Charges were filed in Auckland District Court under the Fair Trading Act and cover the period from 1 January 2012 to 1 January 2017.

The Commission alleges that, having agreed with a customer to terminate their service part-way through the next month, Vodafone then sent an invoice that included charges for the entire next monthly billing period.

As such, the Commission alleges that Vodafone misrepresented its right to payment because its customers only owed payment for the services provided prior to the agreed termination date.

The Commission cannot comment further while this case is before the Court. This matter will be called in the Auckland District Court for the first time on 11 September 2018.

________

Antoniosk

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