8.1 update 1 return of the start menu

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#1023096 10-Apr-2014 20:23

JimmyH:
nathan:

the simplest way to get around the Microsoft account requirement is to pull the network plug out temporarily

And are all these workarounds obvious to the average user who is trying to set things up and doesn't want a Microsoft account?

It's all very well to say that there is a way around it, but if it isn't readily obvious to the average user at the point in the setup process where they need to know about it, then it might as well not exist. A work around that only works for MS techs, because it's largely unknown to anyone else, isn't exactly useful.

Just like your earlier comment that if you don't like Win8 you can just install Win7. Technically correct, but largely pointless in practice.

For the average user, how exactly? That may be true for an MS tech who has access to Win7, or a Geekzone denizen who knows about OEM channels. But:
1. Most new retail machines come pre-installed with Win8
2. When Win8 came out MS pulled Win7 from retail channels - Dick Smith, JB HiFi, Noel Leeming no longer carry it, and
3. Unless you pay extra for the pro version, there is no upgrade rights to Win7, so even if you can find it you have to re-buy Windows.

So most average users don't know they can do this. If they do they probably don't know where to find/buy it. And if they do know and can find it, they have to earse the OS they have been forced to buy, pay again for a different version of Windows, and then figure out how to install that.

And, I should add, that it's not just about the start menu. It's about the overweening arrogance of a company that wants to do everything possible to corral people into a way of doing things for its benefit, not theirs. I freely admit that the underlying OS is fine (speed, stability) is fine. But the whole interface mess is a debacle. It would have been very simple to provide a "classic" skin for the OS on release, and even cursory market testing should have shown that a lot of people would prefer this.

Personally, I have two machines on a KVM (a Win7 box and a Vista Box). They will remain in service for some time for a variety of reasons, and my new box will go onto the same KVM. Even if I grew to know and like it (which I won't), I don't want the whole UI paradigm changing every time I push a button.

Wouldn't the average user just click the button and enter the email address/password/Microsoft account details, or click the button to create one?

the "average user" seems to have so such angst about setting up an Apple ID or a Google ID why the backlash to Microsoft for requiring a Microsoft Account? A large % of people already have a Hotmail.com/Live.com/Outlook.com address already

re: "its benefit, not theirs" personally I think the 7GB free OneDrive cloud storage/backup/OneDrive data/documents/profile Synching is a great user benefit that users on other platforms are used to receiving and OK with it

MikeB4

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#1023102 10-Apr-2014 20:37

nathan:
JimmyH:
nathan:

the simplest way to get around the Microsoft account requirement is to pull the network plug out temporarily

And are all these workarounds obvious to the average user who is trying to set things up and doesn't want a Microsoft account?

It's all very well to say that there is a way around it, but if it isn't readily obvious to the average user at the point in the setup process where they need to know about it, then it might as well not exist. A work around that only works for MS techs, because it's largely unknown to anyone else, isn't exactly useful.

Just like your earlier comment that if you don't like Win8 you can just install Win7. Technically correct, but largely pointless in practice.

For the average user, how exactly? That may be true for an MS tech who has access to Win7, or a Geekzone denizen who knows about OEM channels. But:
1. Most new retail machines come pre-installed with Win8
2. When Win8 came out MS pulled Win7 from retail channels - Dick Smith, JB HiFi, Noel Leeming no longer carry it, and
3. Unless you pay extra for the pro version, there is no upgrade rights to Win7, so even if you can find it you have to re-buy Windows.

So most average users don't know they can do this. If they do they probably don't know where to find/buy it. And if they do know and can find it, they have to earse the OS they have been forced to buy, pay again for a different version of Windows, and then figure out how to install that.

And, I should add, that it's not just about the start menu. It's about the overweening arrogance of a company that wants to do everything possible to corral people into a way of doing things for its benefit, not theirs. I freely admit that the underlying OS is fine (speed, stability) is fine. But the whole interface mess is a debacle. It would have been very simple to provide a "classic" skin for the OS on release, and even cursory market testing should have shown that a lot of people would prefer this.

Personally, I have two machines on a KVM (a Win7 box and a Vista Box). They will remain in service for some time for a variety of reasons, and my new box will go onto the same KVM. Even if I grew to know and like it (which I won't), I don't want the whole UI paradigm changing every time I push a button.

Wouldn't the average user just click the button and enter the email address/password/Microsoft account details, or click the button to create one?

the "average user" seems to have so such angst about setting up an Apple ID or a Google ID why the backlash to Microsoft for requiring a Microsoft Account? A large % of people already have a Hotmail.com/Live.com/Outlook.com address already

re: "its benefit, not theirs" personally I think the 7GB free OneDrive cloud storage/backup/OneDrive data/documents/profile Synching is a great user benefit that users on other platforms are used to receiving and OK with it

+1

I don't see the issue

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

billgates

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#1023120 10-Apr-2014 21:14

If you want to use your existing local account when you upgrade from 8.0 to 8.1, you can click on 'create a new account' and at the very bottom there is an option 'use your existing account'. Worked for me.

Do whatever you want to do man.

surfisup1000

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#1023152 10-Apr-2014 21:51

KiwiNZ:
+1

I don't see the issue

There is a huge 'perception' issue though.

PC's/laptops are fairly open and flexible systems where users store their most sensitive data. Entering your email address as your account user could give one the impression your data is not so safe.

When I type my email address as my main login user it gives me the impression I am using an internet cafe connected PC rather than a private home PC. Heck knows what data MS could be collecting and tying together via web browsing. They could even see what applications you are using and websites visited across all PC's and devices where you enter your email as a sign on.

There are also some questions in the setup related to using your account for advertising tie-ins and that gives people the willies when entering your email address too.

I want my own local and private user account that works connected to the internet or not.

nathan

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#1023176 10-Apr-2014 23:17

meanwhile people happily use Gmail and Google search so Google can make money serving up ads, knowing what you want to buy online before you know you even want to buy it

networkn

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#1023179 10-Apr-2014 23:19

nathan: meanwhile people happily use Gmail and Google search so Google can make money serving up ads, knowing what you want to buy online before you know you even want to buy it

So MS doesn't do this with Bing?

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nathan

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#1023182 10-Apr-2014 23:24

MS doesn't read your email

networkn

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#1023183 10-Apr-2014 23:29

nathan: MS doesn't read your email

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26677607

I think you mean, they don't read it any more.

surfisup1000

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#1023192 11-Apr-2014 00:08

networkn:
nathan: MS doesn't read your email

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26677607

I think you mean, they don't read it any more.

Snap!

nathan

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#1023193 11-Apr-2014 00:11

I believe that we are talking about 2 different things
The article you posted refers to a criminal that stole intellectual property. Microsoft has said that next time they will get a search warrant from the authorities

Microsoft does not read your email accounts to profile you and serve up adverts where you become the product like Gmail does, in reference to the Microsoft account question above about tying browser history/app usage

Funny how (most) people don't mind giving that up with Google IDs into Chrome, Android phones & tablets, and Chromebooks

nathan

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#1023194 11-Apr-2014 00:12

surfisup1000:
networkn:
nathan: MS doesn't read your email

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26677607

I think you mean, they don't read it any more.

Snap!

the moral of the story is don't be a criminal stealing IP

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Klipspringer

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#1023200 11-Apr-2014 03:41

If you want to make use of cloud based services this type of thing will always be a threat.

If you paranoid about your data there is an easy solution. Unplug your lan cable.

freitasm

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#1023214 11-Apr-2014 07:41

People complaining about logging on using an online account on a device that is meant to be used online...

As Nathan says, people have no problems with Apple Ids (known to have been leaked by third party apps), or Google Accounts (and using those fake apps on Android), or Facebook and Twitter... Really hard to understand the problem then.

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#1023236 11-Apr-2014 09:20

nathan: What is a Google ID required on Android Phones/Tablets?

Just a note on this, a Google ID, at least up to Android 4.2, is not a requirement to use an Android phone or tablet. I have done some basic device testing recently on a number of Android devices recently of various models and brands and none of them had this as a mandatory requirement. You can skip that part on the setup process and still use the phone or tablet.

Granted you don't get access to any of the Google services and can't download apps etc, but the tablet or phone is still usable and functional.

ArcticSilver

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#1023284 11-Apr-2014 10:24

nathan: the simplest way to get around the Microsoft account requirement is to pull the network plug out temporarily

Why is Microsoft account a requirement? why is an Apple ID required on an iPad/iPhone? What is a Google ID required on Android Phones/Tablets?
To remove the friction, to make it easy for people to download apps, use Cloud services, sync settings, do backups etc

Opening PDFs, PDF Reader is build into Windows 8. So instead the customer would prefer the PDF file didn't open? Obviously you can install Acrobat Reader/Foxit Reader etc and then the PDF will open in the desktop viewer. Close an app, sure you need to know to drag down with your Mouse, or keyboard ALT+F4 which has been the close keyboard command for decades. Yes Windows 8.1 Update adds in the minimise/close icons to the Modern apps

Shutting down, you push the physical power button, you don't shutdown - you let your PC sleep, you hit ALT+F4 in the desktop (which has been that way for decades), you hit Windows Key + I, you right click on the Start Button and click Shutdown. With Windows 8.1 Update there is a Power Button now on the Start Screen

what's up with your OneDrive integration?

So, on a laptop, with wireless connected, my client should know to disconnect the wireless? (which im not even sure you can do, from the 8.1 setup page!). Or should he unplug the wireless router that is used for his business, just so he can get his laptop back to how it was? I can't believe this is even suggested as a solution.

As JimmyH has said. It's not about us technical people, its about the average user. For that matter, why isn't is a obvious option!? Why not have it? Here lies my problem.

You argue that a Microsoft account, like a Apple ID and a google account is a requirement to "remove the friction". Why if users do not want to browse the APP store? Or download metro apps? What if a local account is needed for a specific reason? Microsoft, at the very least hides away any form of choice. I should also add, that the Google account on Android is completely optional. I have setup a device without it.

The Microsoft account requirement isn't my biggest gripe however, it is the fact that you start with a local user account and then when you update your computer you suddenly cannot login until you have created a Microsoft account?!? This in tern leads to confusion as to what credentials people use to log into their computer. They've been told to use these, they've always used these, but they no longer word because you have to use your Microsoft account now.

Yes, some people would prefer their PDF did not open over having it in the Metro UI. It's quite simple, they get into the Metro UI and they don't know how to get out! Thankfully this is slowly being fixed. Just because it adds functionality to Windows, does it mean it was a good addition.

Alt-F4 may have been around for decades, but how many people use it? The average user clicks the X in the top right corner, but in Metro that was gone. I am glad that is finally coming back.

The average user is still afraid of hitting the power button, because years ago, you hit it and poof the computer is off. Then there are the other reasons, for instance the computer could be under a desk, not readily accessible. There is a big need for a readily accessible power button in Windows. Which I see is finally coming.

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