Smash and grabs at MHJ

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Awrrr
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#3080916 29-May-2023 15:45

networkn:

You aren't advocating for anything that most others here aren't also advocating for. The problem is that dealing with the issue at source is a long-term project, in a county besieged by large numbers of high-priority issues. In the meantime, we need to effectively reduce crime.

I see nothing in the pipeline to do that.

You are mashing different things together which makes a sensible discussion impossible. 'Crime' as an unspecified blob does not exist. Someone who runs a ponzi scheme and someone who sexually assaults people are not the same as kids who ram raid. The acts are different and so are the perpetrators. Young people require a different approach. Not a free ride so don't go down that tiresome path. But not regular prison where they are thrown in with gangsters and psychopaths either.

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cokemaster

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#3080920 29-May-2023 15:54

I understand why you’d wouldn’t want to be drawn out on individual cases, @MikeB4.
Let’s talk generics then. I’ll go first - I’m going to get criticised for this, I’m writing this off the cuff, please be gentle. My hope is to spawn some conversations about potential actions we could do.

- I support strengthening our education and youth upbringing programmes particularly in areas with high relative poverty. I’d like see jobs programmes for those who opt not to take higher education. I’d like to see more parental training, let by local community leaders. Maybe something radical - consider decentralisation of Auckland-Wellington-Christchurch to distribute more jobs around the country?

- For first offenders - a wrap around programme to course correct. This could also include job training so people transition into gainful employment. Idea is to not throw them in prison, but give them the support to turn their lives around.

- For serious offensives Eg. Rape / murders… imprisonment or mandatory health support (in the event of those who lack the capacity). Sentences need to be set to provide both a deterrent and to protect society. Obviously needs to have a test between self defence vs instigating.
Since they’re likely to be released into society, job training and transition into society programs as a condition to be released.

- for repeat offenders that pose a risk (eg. Drunk drivers who continue driving after multiple offences), unfortunately it’s likely that these people will not cease their activities. They’d need to be put in an intensive programme with limited freedoms until it’s proven that they’re no longer a risk to society.

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#3080925 29-May-2023 16:07

Rikkitic:

You are mashing different things together which makes a sensible discussion impossible. 'Crime' as an unspecified blob does not exist. Someone who runs a ponzi scheme and someone who sexually assaults people are not the same as kids who ram raid. The acts are different and so are the perpetrators. Young people require a different approach. Not a free ride so don't go down that tiresome path. But not regular prison where they are thrown in with gangsters and psychopaths either.

Where have you seen anyone here talking about throwing kids in prison with psychopaths? No one, not a single person is suggesting maximum security prison. Currently, there is almost no consequences for kids (or pretty much anyone) who ram raids, rob's a dairy or a liquor store and as a consequence, it's a daily occurrence.

In the last 365 days of these crimes, how many charges have been laid against those responsible? We need to prevent these crimes by having police more visible, and more present. We need to address the socio-economic long-term issues that lead to that, but ultimately we need to understand the reasons for it. Not guess, but actually, determine the reason. It's certainly not necessity, people aren't robbing liquor stores to feed a starving family (and in those cases there are mechanisms to ensure fair treatment).

I have outlined why I think it's happening, but it's an educated guess. Perhaps the Government could form a task force to investigate that? (We have one for every other conceivable reason!).

One thing is for sure, without changes, expect another 365 days of the same.

Rikkitic

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#3080928 29-May-2023 16:11

cokemaster:

All good ideas. All cost a lot. The reason we have the problems we do today is because we spent decades trying to do things on the cheap. This is the chickens coming home to roost.

You want to stop ram raids dead in their tracks? Easy. Just have three burly police officers on duty around the clock at every potential target.

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Wombat1

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#3080933 29-May-2023 16:21

Rikkitic:

But not regular prison where they are thrown in with gangsters and psychopaths either.

No need to setuop a strawman here. I am not going to be roped into defending this argument.

MikeB4

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#3080939 29-May-2023 16:30

@cokemaster Your ideas have merits but again it is the elastoplast solutions. This is where I will probably get unpopular. We need to address the issue at a fundamental societal levels. Starting with education. Primary and secondary Education in Aotearoa has been in decline for decades, we fool ourselves that is equally available to all and simply not the case. Wealthier suburbs get better education facilities and outcome. We are largely a low income nation and this is reflected in our education outcomes. Barriers to education are poor recognition of learning disabilities and physical hindrances to education. Poor nutrition. Period poverty, inadequate clothing contribute to poor education. Poor housing and poor access to affordable healthy housing contribute to poor education. This leads to the ever increasing social divide and alienation from the benefits of society.

The results of poor education is limited employment opportunities and the ability to earn a living income which in turn exacerbates alienation from the benefits of society. Then there is the impact of mental heath issues resulting the fore mentioned issues. Add in escapism by the way of substance abuse and the spiral into crime is set in motion. We need fundamental changes in our society to address the social divide and resulting deprivation, alienation, poverty and hopelessness. That can start by recognizing that these issues are real and that Aotearoa is not the land of milk and honey.

If we can address these issues crimes of dishonesty, substance abuse, domestic violence and more would see declines and the overall health and quality of life of our peoples vastly improved.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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Paul1977

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#3080940 29-May-2023 16:44

Rikkitic:

A kid just died and others are in hospital because they didn't think about consequences. I am arguing that young people who commit these sorts of crimes don't think like you do.

I'm not familiar with the particular incident you're referring to, but that's a very different type of consequence and I think hard to compare to the more foreseeable consequence of getting caught. I take your point though, young people don't consider consequences as much, but to suggest they don't consider them at all seems a step too far.

If more serious consequences dissuaded only 25% of them from committing these crimes, that's still 25% less crimes being committed.

As I've said several times, more serious legal consequences as a deterrent is only one component. The others are more complicated and difficult to implement.

Rikkitic

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#3080941 29-May-2023 16:47

Wombat1:

Rikkitic:

But not regular prison where they are thrown in with gangsters and psychopaths either.

No need to setuop a strawman here. I am not going to be roped into defending this argument.

I am glad to alleviate your anxiety of being roped into something. I have no idea what you are talking about here.

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Paul1977

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#3080942 29-May-2023 16:49

MikeB4:

@cokemaster Your ideas have merits but again it is the elastoplast solutions. This is where I will probably get unpopular. We need to address the issue at a fundamental societal levels. Starting with education. Primary and secondary Education in Aotearoa has been in decline for decades, we fool ourselves that is equally available to all and simply not the case. Wealthier suburbs get better education facilities and outcome. We are largely a low income nation and this is reflected in our education outcomes. Barriers to education are poor recognition of learning disabilities and physical hindrances to education. Poor nutrition. Period poverty, inadequate clothing contribute to poor education. Poor housing and poor access to affordable healthy housing contribute to poor education. This leads to the ever increasing social divide and alienation from the benefits of society.

The results of poor education is limited employment opportunities and the ability to earn a living income which in turn exacerbates alienation from the benefits of society. Then there is the impact of mental heath issues resulting the fore mentioned issues. Add in escapism by the way of substance abuse and the spiral into crime is set in motion. We need fundamental changes in our society to address the social divide and resulting deprivation, alienation, poverty and hopelessness. That can start by recognizing that these issues are real and that Aotearoa is not the land of milk and honey.

If we can address these issues crimes of dishonesty, substance abuse, domestic violence and more would see declines and the overall health and quality of life of our peoples vastly improved.

I don't think any rational person would disagree with any of that. But as mentioned previously by @networkn, even if current and future governments committed to this (which they should), it's a long term generational strategy. It might get us there eventually, but what do we do right now?

Rikkitic

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#3080944 29-May-2023 16:59

Paul1977:

Rikkitic:

A kid just died and others are in hospital because they didn't think about consequences. I am arguing that young people who commit these sorts of crimes don't think like you do.

I'm not familiar with the particular incident you're referring to, but that's a very different type of consequence and I think hard to compare to the more foreseeable consequence of getting caught. I take your point though, young people don't consider consequences as much, but to suggest they don't consider them at all seems a step too far.

If more serious consequences dissuaded only 25% of them from committing these crimes, that's still 25% less crimes being committed.

As I've said several times, more serious legal consequences as a deterrent is only one component. The others are more complicated and difficult to implement.

Here is the story. Not quite kids as they were in the 20s but still young and stupid.

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Rikkitic

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#3080945 29-May-2023 17:06

Paul1977:

I don't think any rational person would disagree with any of that. But as mentioned previously by @networkn, even if current and future governments committed to this (which they should), it's a long term generational strategy. It might get us there eventually, but what do we do right now?

I don't think there is much that really can be done because voters are not prepared to spend the money, which is what created this situation in the first place. But like other fads ram raids will gradually lose their appeal and die out as the raiders move on to other thrills and they will no longer make headline news and people will forget about them and get outraged over something else and nothing will fundamentally change.

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gzt

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#3080950 29-May-2023 17:20

networkn: Crime is at an all-time high and

I'm not sure that's true. Retail ram raids are a very visible type of crime that can be easily seen from the road. In other areas of crime I'm aware police statistical collection has improved creating additional visibility in stats. This is acknowledged by police. Imo "crime is at an all time high" is a generality and requires further qualification. I'm inclined to ask for the source of your statement.

Wombat1

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#3080951 29-May-2023 17:22

Rikkitic:

Paul1977:

I don't think any rational person would disagree with any of that. But as mentioned previously by @networkn, even if current and future governments committed to this (which they should), it's a long term generational strategy. It might get us there eventually, but what do we do right now?

I don't think there is much that really can be done because voters are not prepared to spend the money, which is what created this situation in the first place. But like other fads ram raids will gradually lose their appeal and die out as the raiders move on to other thrills and they will no longer make headline news and people will forget about them and get outraged over something else and nothing will fundamentally change.

Do you have any proof of that statement, "taxpayers created the problem"?

You seem more cared about what outranges people and what people think about crime than crime iteself.

Some people need to be locked away. This can apply to more than just criminals, people that are a danger to society are put into refinment. A dementia unit is another good example. Its holding people against their will, do you disagree with these types of facilities too?

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#3080952 29-May-2023 17:25

gzt:
networkn: Crime is at an all-time high and

I'm not sure that's true. Retail ram raids are a very visible type of crime that can be easily seen from the road. In other areas of crime I'm aware police statistical collection has improved creating additional visibility in stats. This is acknowledged by police. Imo "crime is at an all time high" is a generality and requires further qualification. I'm inclined to ask for the source of your statement.

Did you try google?

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/NZL/new-zealand/crime-rate-statistics

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#3081026 29-May-2023 18:32

I came across that. It doesn't change the reasons I'm asking or the need to know more. You can guarantee some types of crime went down and some went up. In a topic that has become concerned with solutions it is necessary to know more about the problem.

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