3rd degree tonight and GCSB

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#1169826 6-Nov-2014 10:18

SaltyNZ:
Geektastic: Just wait until the first car bomb goes off in Queen St or whatever.

You'll all be singing a different tune then, I can assure you.

I'd be lying if I said that the subconscious part of my brain that's really bad at estimating risk wouldn't be somewhat worried by that, but fortunately I also have another part of my brain that can count, with which to override it.

I'm just wondering why a car bomb on Queen St... is somehow worst than the thousands of people who die for preventable and 3rd world diseases that are rife in this country.

Yes people die, it's a fact of life. Yes there are some crazy nutters out there.

But lets just compare the number of people die on our roads per annum, spend days in hospital and a year on antibiotics from rheumatic fever.

vs

The number of people arrested in Australia from the terror raids (I think it's 1 right?) and the number who died in Canada from a crazy (again.. that was 1 trooper?). And the number of "Terrorists" that were arrested and charged from the Urewera terror raids (4 went to trial).

In both cases there is legal avenues called a warrant to allow the GCSB or SIS to investigate those people further. The mass collection of metadata wouldn't change that warrants can be issued there.

Yet many seem comfortable to throw away any legal avenue to be followed for 48 hours as remotely acceptable.

Would those who were spied upon for 48 hours without any justification where nothing was found be told they had been spied upon be told about it. Unlikely.

Geektastic

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#1169827 6-Nov-2014 10:19

SaltyNZ:
Geektastic: Just wait until the first car bomb goes off in Queen St or whatever.

You'll all be singing a different tune then, I can assure you.

I'd be lying if I said that the subconscious part of my brain that's really bad at estimating risk wouldn't be somewhat worried by that, but fortunately I also have another part of my brain that can count, with which to override it.

As I said, wait until it happens.

Sadly - or fortunately depending on how you look at it - Kiwis have managed to exist in a parallel universe untouched by the real world for a long time.

Those of us who have actually lived with and through terrorist attacks are perhaps a little less able to put our fingers in our ears and go 'la la la la' when the subject comes up.

MikeB4

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#1169828 6-Nov-2014 10:20

*sigh*

Geektastic

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#1169837 6-Nov-2014 10:21

plambrechtsen:
SaltyNZ:
Geektastic: Just wait until the first car bomb goes off in Queen St or whatever.

You'll all be singing a different tune then, I can assure you.

I'd be lying if I said that the subconscious part of my brain that's really bad at estimating risk wouldn't be somewhat worried by that, but fortunately I also have another part of my brain that can count, with which to override it.

I'm just wondering why a car bomb on Queen St... is somehow worst than the thousands of people who die for preventable and 3rd world diseases that are rife in this country.

Yes people die, it's a fact of life. Yes there are some crazy nutters out there.

But lets just compare the number of people die on our roads per annum, spend days in hospital and a year on antibiotics from rheumatic fever.

vs

The number of people arrested in Australia from the terror raids (I think it's 1 right?) and the number who died in Canada from a crazy (again.. that was 1 trooper?). And the number of "Terrorists" that were arrested and charged from the Urewera terror raids (4 went to trial).

In both cases there is legal avenues called a warrant to allow the GCSB or SIS to investigate those people further. The mass collection of metadata wouldn't change that warrants can be issued there.

Yet many seem comfortable to throw away any legal avenue to be followed for 48 hours as remotely acceptable.

Would those who were spied upon for 48 hours without any justification where nothing was found be told they had been spied upon be told about it. Unlikely.

And would it make the slightest difference to their lives if they were not terrorists and were spied on for 48 hours? Unlikely.

plambrechtsen

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#1169840 6-Nov-2014 10:21

Geektastic:
SaltyNZ:
Geektastic: Just wait until the first car bomb goes off in Queen St or whatever.

You'll all be singing a different tune then, I can assure you.

I'd be lying if I said that the subconscious part of my brain that's really bad at estimating risk wouldn't be somewhat worried by that, but fortunately I also have another part of my brain that can count, with which to override it.

As I said, wait until it happens.

Sadly - or fortunately depending on how you look at it - Kiwis have managed to exist in a parallel universe untouched by the real world for a long time.

Those of us who have actually lived with and through terrorist attacks are perhaps a little less able to put our fingers in our ears and go 'la la la la' when the subject comes up.

How on earth did we manage to survive without mass surveillance pick up those pesky frenchies after they bombed a protest boat in Auckland harbor.

I think it was called the Police and SIS doing their job and get a warrant when it's justified. The mass collection of metadata won't change that.

plambrechtsen

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#1169842 6-Nov-2014 10:22

Geektastic: And would it make the slightest difference to their lives if they were not terrorists and were spied on for 48 hours? Unlikely.

But who determines who a terrorist is or isn't. Ask many and they would say Nicky Hager is a terrorist.

Plus to add to that, I suspect if you asked the 800+ people detained in Australia or the many hundreds of people raided in the urewera's over their "terror raids" that resulted in less than 10 arrests in total if there was no difference in their lives.

MikeB4

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#1169844 6-Nov-2014 10:33

That is why the Government hires professionals to detect, investigate and prevent and not a bunch of internet amateurs who think they know more. For the record I include myself in the later.

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plambrechtsen

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#1169845 6-Nov-2014 10:35

KiwiNZ: That is why the Government hires professionals to detect, investigate and prevent and not a bunch of internet amateurs who think they know more.

Right.... Fascinating reading I say: http://www.gcsb.govt.nz/assets/GCSB-Compliance-Review/Review-of-Compliance.pdf

freitasm

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Geekzone

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#1169850 6-Nov-2014 10:41

The price we pay for democracy is being aware that governments need checks and balances - and WE provide those checks.

We can't just let governments go out and anything and everything they feel they should be doing. We have to scrutinise, ask inconvenient questions and not always accept their "facts" without supporting evidence. Otherwise we can just throw our votes out and get Putin running the country here.

DarthKermit

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#1169851 6-Nov-2014 10:43

Howabout the part of the report on that datacentre with over a zettabyte of storage capacity!!!

Whatifthespacekeyhadneverbeeninvented?

SaltyNZ

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#1169854 6-Nov-2014 10:52

Geektastic:

Those of us who have actually lived with and through terrorist attacks are perhaps a little less able to put our fingers in our ears and go 'la la la la' when the subject comes up.

And yet we'd still be better off overall if we took all the time, effort and money that we put into chasing terrorists and put it into, say, breast cancer research instead.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

CYaBro

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#1169897 6-Nov-2014 11:44

The part I don't get is why do they want to stop these people from travelling overseas and joining ISIS etc?
If they want to go let them, just don't let them back in.
I'd prefer it if these 'nutters' were not in NZ.

Opinions are my own and not the views of my employer.

MikeB4

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#1169901 6-Nov-2014 11:47

CYaBro: The part I don't get is why do they want to stop these people from travelling overseas and joining ISIS etc?
If they want to go let them, just don't let them back in.
I'd prefer it if these 'nutters' were not in NZ.

you are advocating restricting New Zealanders movements because of an imagine problem, now thats just crazy talk :P

DravidDavid

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#1169904 6-Nov-2014 11:49

This has been coming for years. The "War on Terror" is now everywhere. Everyone is supposed to live in fear that some middle eastern guy is going to blow himself up at Albany mall or something.

Soon we will have an escaped mental patient that's watched the news a few too many times, learned all about beheadings and ends up wanting to try it out for himself. Of course they will look at his Google history, see "beheading ISIS middle east" and report that he identified as an ISIS extremist so it was an act of terror..."Oh and by the way, he was also mentally ill...But we don't think that has anything to do with it. He was a terrorist".

Terrorist tax anyone? I predict a lack of funding with all these fancy meetings taking place. Rates will rise to pay for the anti-terror funding in the name of peace and safety.

Geektastic

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#1169919 6-Nov-2014 11:57

plambrechtsen:
Geektastic:
SaltyNZ:
Geektastic: Just wait until the first car bomb goes off in Queen St or whatever.

You'll all be singing a different tune then, I can assure you.

I'd be lying if I said that the subconscious part of my brain that's really bad at estimating risk wouldn't be somewhat worried by that, but fortunately I also have another part of my brain that can count, with which to override it.

As I said, wait until it happens.

Sadly - or fortunately depending on how you look at it - Kiwis have managed to exist in a parallel universe untouched by the real world for a long time.

Those of us who have actually lived with and through terrorist attacks are perhaps a little less able to put our fingers in our ears and go 'la la la la' when the subject comes up.

How on earth did we manage to survive without mass surveillance pick up those pesky frenchies after they bombed a protest boat in Auckland harbor.

I think it was called the Police and SIS doing their job and get a warrant when it's justified. The mass collection of metadata won't change that.

That is hardly the same as, for example, a busload of school kids being blown up in Auckland.

As I said, fortunately many of you have little experience of these things. Once you do, your views will change.

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