Magical thinking

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#1565031 3-Jun-2016 13:16

Geektastic:

To use the gravity analogy above, you do not necessarily need to understand it - you can prove it exists by dropping a plate or trying to jump off the world. You cannot prove that any one of the certainly thousands and probably hundreds of thousands of gods and goddesses humans have invented ever actually existed.

I didn't say that we need to understand gravity. I was using it as an example of faith. We assume that gravity will continue to operate without ever understanding why that should be true. Dropping a plate today does not prove that that effect will be unchanged tomorrow. We have evidence that it has operated unchanged for many years. We assume that what is happening will continue. We have faith that gravity will continue to operate.

We have evidence and proof for lots of things indirectly by the effect they have. Why would you deny that sort of evidence or proof for others to believe things that you don't?

You say "cannot prove" on the basis of your own position. Lack of understanding, evidence or proof does not constitute total certainty that something does not exist. That is a decision that you have made. Others make a different decision on the basis of the understanding, evidence and proof that they have.

Rikkitic

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#1565037 3-Jun-2016 13:23

Here is some real magic: Two centuries ago Edward Jenner noticed that milkmaids who had contracted cowpox did not get smallpox and used the former to produce immunity to the latter. Eventually the discovery of vaccination led to the eradication of smallpox altogether. It also prevented untold suffering, especially amongst children, from innumerable other nasty diseases, such as measles and polio.

Magic. Yet there are people today prepared to expose their helpless children to such horrors because of a single discredited paper claiming that vaccination leads to autism. What happens to the thinking circuits in such human beings? How can one (proven untrue) rumour that vaccination might cause developmental difficulties overwhelm tons of other evidence and years of experience that it prevents a multitude of diseases that kill, maim and cripple? Where does this special kind of irrationality come from?

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

MikeB4

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#1565038 3-Jun-2016 13:24

I find it interesting that so many try to change or break others faith with religious zeal.

Fred99

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#1565040 3-Jun-2016 13:28

Some aspects of science seem to fit the definition of "magic" (ie quantum entanglement over distance).

Zero-energy universe is also beyond comprehension (to me) in a meaningful way relative to our existence as part of it, and that's not even a particularly new or "out-there" hypothesis.

There have also been some monumental stuff-ups in "consensus" science (ie how long it took for consensus on plate tectonics - despite it being retrospectively blindingly obvious).

I doubt there are many GP's who haven't knowingly used placebo effect for the good of a patient, although this isn't "magic" as such, it is utilising the same trick used by homoeopathic practitioners and other scamsters.

Apart from various manifestations of the god-delusion, what are the other beliefs in "magic", and which are the most harmful?

deadlyllama

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#1565049 3-Jun-2016 13:42

SepticSceptic:

Religion ... follow the money ...

As someone with an MSc and 1/3rd of a BTheol... there isn't any in my neck of the woods. Switching from IT to the ministry will be a big pay cut.

Hammerer:

One reason is that science is not the dispassionate enquiry we were taught. It is so easy to find "intellectual rigour" giving way to vested interest and "scientific method" subverted for non-scientific ends. Rational pursuit of fame and economic gain are reasons why science has such a poor reputation. I feel like "scientists" are one of the great disappointments exposed in my lifetime:

http://www.neatorama.com/2006/09/19/10scientific-frauds-that-rocked-the-world/

I'm not sure that the Tasaday discovery during my childhood is really science but it feels like another disappointment.

For people I know, this is what kills trust in science. Science in the service of wealth, privilege and politics often produces results that favour the funders. Studies that might not push the barrow that the money wants pushed simply aren't funded, or the inconvenient results are never publicised. And the whole modern "publish or perish" thing means that no one is interested in studies with negative results.

The current upturning of the food pyramid on its head is one example of this. Thalidomide, PFOA, BPA, leaded petrol, all those wonder chemicals that turned out to have disastrous consequences for public health are another. There are enough "they said it was safe, and it wasn't" to make people nervous. "But we found out these mistakes and corrected them!" is cold comfort to people whose children had birth defects / cancer / etc.

jmh

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#1565120 3-Jun-2016 15:38

What seems like magic today turns into hard fact tomorrow. Take Semmelweis (1818 - 1865).

He found that when he washed his hands between cutting up dead bodies and delivering babies, fewer women and babies got childbed fever and died. He did studies and was able to prove that in fact washing hands led to fewer deaths. However when he tried to share the information in the hospital he worked in, he was ridiculed and eventually forced out, later to die after a beating in a mental institution. You see, he couldn't identify a mechanism for his theory. Everybody knew, at the time, that disease was spread by bad air, so how on earth could washing your hands make a difference - kinda looks like magic if you see it from their point of view.

Only a few years later, when germs were discovered, it became obvious that hand washing would prevent the spread of disease. Sadly Semmelweis was long dead by then.

In 1900 Lord Kelvin said "There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains is more and more precise measurement"

From a bit earlier:

"So many centuries after the Creation, it is unlikely that anyone could find hitherto unknown lands of any value." - Spanish Royal Commission, rejecting Christopher Columbus' proposal to sail west.

I read the words of a reputable doctor who, in the 1990s, wrote that he believes there is probably an 'infective agent' like bacteria that we haven't discovered yet. Imagine if that were true, what hocus-pocus theories might suddenly gain merit.

In addition, as someone has already mentioned, science is being bought and corrupted by industry. It is true that science finds the truth in the end but this will harm science too when people realise they have been lied to by the men in white coats they trusted. I refer you to Auckland Uni physicist Professor Shaun Hendy who, in his new book, writes about Silencing Science for more on the picture in NZ.

jmh

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#1565122 3-Jun-2016 15:43

deadlyllama:

For people I know, this is what kills trust in science. Science in the service of wealth, privilege and politics often produces results that favour the funders. Studies that might not push the barrow that the money wants pushed simply aren't funded, or the inconvenient results are never publicised. And the whole modern "publish or perish" thing means that no one is interested in studies with negative results.

The current upturning of the food pyramid on its head is one example of this. Thalidomide, PFOA, BPA, leaded petrol, all those wonder chemicals that turned out to have disastrous consequences for public health are another. There are enough "they said it was safe, and it wasn't" to make people nervous. "But we found out these mistakes and corrected them!" is cold comfort to people whose children had birth defects / cancer / etc.

Asbestos is another. I remember on the news, when people complained of lung problems due to asbestos they were ridiculed. It was considered so safe they built schools with the stuff.

And x-rays - take your kiddie down to the local shoe shop to have their foot x-rayed so you can get proper fitting shoes. We don't do that now for a good reason.

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MikeB4

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#1565128 3-Jun-2016 16:02

I have started to walk again and get around without the chair or other aids, not always but an increasing amount of time. I have not had a change in treatment or medication. This is something my specialists said was very unlikely to happen

beats me how, was it determination, luck? I have no idea but I am not going to look a gift horse in the mouth and intend to make the most of it.

There is still alot of things that cannot be answered.

Rikkitic

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#1565276 3-Jun-2016 17:52

MikeB4:

I have started to walk again and get around without the chair or other aids, not always but an increasing amount of time. I have not had a change in treatment or medication. This is something my specialists said was very unlikely to happen

beats me how, was it determination, luck? I have no idea but I am not going to look a gift horse in the mouth and intend to make the most of it.

There is still alot of things that cannot be answered.

Congratulations. That must be great for you. I hope it continues to improve.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Fred99

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#1565366 3-Jun-2016 19:34

MikeB4:

I have started to walk again and get around without the chair or other aids, not always but an increasing amount of time. I have not had a change in treatment or medication. This is something my specialists said was very unlikely to happen

beats me how, was it determination, luck? I have no idea but I am not going to look a gift horse in the mouth and intend to make the most of it.

There is still alot of things that cannot be answered.

That's very good news - and I hope the improvement continues.

I'm guessing (from some of your other posts re medication etc) that you suffer from psoriatic arthritis which is very unpleasant (understatement).

I'm a good candidate for that - as I have had mild psoriasis for decades - I seem to benefit from large doses (1,000 iu daily over winter) of vitamin D, despite there being scant scientific evidence that it could work.

MikeB4

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#1565371 3-Jun-2016 20:08

Fred99:

MikeB4:

I have started to walk again and get around without the chair or other aids, not always but an increasing amount of time. I have not had a change in treatment or medication. This is something my specialists said was very unlikely to happen

beats me how, was it determination, luck? I have no idea but I am not going to look a gift horse in the mouth and intend to make the most of it.

There is still alot of things that cannot be answered.

That's very good news - and I hope the improvement continues.

I'm guessing (from some of your other posts re medication etc) that you suffer from psoriatic arthritis which is very unpleasant (understatement).

I'm a good candidate for that - as I have had mild psoriasis for decades - I seem to benefit from large doses (1,000 iu daily over winter) of vitamin D, despite there being scant scientific evidence that it could work.

Thanks for that, i have a severe case of Ankylosing Spondylitis and Rheumatoid Arthritis. The AS has caused fusion of the cervical and Lumber Spine and Ribs it has also affected my heart, kidneys.The Sacroiliac Joint is affected as are my hips. There is also compression of the Spinal cord caused by the fusion. Then there is the RA that is affecting my hands, elbows, knees, and feet. So all in a pain.

MikeB4

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#1565372 3-Jun-2016 20:09

Rikkitic:

MikeB4:

I have started to walk again and get around without the chair or other aids, not always but an increasing amount of time. I have not had a change in treatment or medication. This is something my specialists said was very unlikely to happen

beats me how, was it determination, luck? I have no idea but I am not going to look a gift horse in the mouth and intend to make the most of it.

There is still alot of things that cannot be answered.

Congratulations. That must be great for you. I hope it continues to improve.

thanks for that

networkn

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#1565379 3-Jun-2016 20:22

To the OP. I can answer your question completely in 1 word.

HOPE.

Humans need it, they crave it. It's not a bad thing per se, but like a lot of good things, it can be used to instigate incredibly bad behaviour and poor choices. Equally, Hope, leading to faith, has been responsible for many of the good things you see every day.

I was once told an interesting thing that stuck with me my entire life.

Good and Bad are like water and Black Ink. In a Large glass bowl full of water (good), you only need a drop of ink (bad) to taint the good, and a lot of water (good) is required to erase that ink (Bad). It's true if you think about an argument you had with someone you love, the bad feeling will feel a lot worse than the good thing that happened right before, or right after.

Given the world looks *generally" pretty much like water, there is clearly a lot of good and a LOT of that comes from those with faith. For those who claim they are good "without faith", you will probably

find that the people who influenced them were people of "faith (Which doesn't necessarily, but often includes, religion).

Sam91

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#1565392 3-Jun-2016 20:49

MikeB4:

Fred99:

MikeB4:

I have started to walk again and get around without the chair or other aids, not always but an increasing amount of time. I have not had a change in treatment or medication. This is something my specialists said was very unlikely to happen

beats me how, was it determination, luck? I have no idea but I am not going to look a gift horse in the mouth and intend to make the most of it.

There is still alot of things that cannot be answered.

That's very good news - and I hope the improvement continues.

I'm guessing (from some of your other posts re medication etc) that you suffer from psoriatic arthritis which is very unpleasant (understatement).

I'm a good candidate for that - as I have had mild psoriasis for decades - I seem to benefit from large doses (1,000 iu daily over winter) of vitamin D, despite there being scant scientific evidence that it could work.

Thanks for that, i have a severe case of Ankylosing Spondylitis and Rheumatoid Arthritis. The AS has caused fusion of the cervical and Lumber Spine and Ribs it has also affected my heart, kidneys.The Sacroiliac Joint is affected as are my hips. There is also compression of the Spinal cord caused by the fusion. Then there is the RA that is affecting my hands, elbows, knees, and feet. So all in a pain.

Sorry to hear that, I've grown up with a father in a similar situation. My dad has Psoriatic Arthritis and Ankylosing Spondylitis. He was a top badminton and rugby player in his early 20s. He went back to rugby to trial for Auckland after a bit of time off, made a bad rugby tackle, and that was all it took. It wasn't a spinal injury, but somehow it triggered something that made his body completely shutdown. For 40 years he could barely walk, his whole body was completely fused. I had to carry around his stool as a child, so he sit down every few minutes. Despite his disability he has run a number of small businesses over the last 30 years, employing around 30 staff at one point.

Now to the point of my post. A few years ago he was put on Humira. With a lot of training and willpower, he has gone from barely being able to walk, to walking 10km. If you're not on Humira it's worth looking into. Also, if you're interested in walking with a supportive group of disabled athletes, get in touch with Achilles NZ.

blakamin

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#1565408 3-Jun-2016 21:11

Fred99:

suffer from psoriatic arthritis which is very unpleasant (understatement).

Another member of the club! (diagnosed 3 years ago... does it ever go away?)

Glad you're walking again @MikeB4!!!

OT: I was brought up catholic... In fact, my father (who I got the psoriatic arthritis from, his psoriasis was so bad he had no finger nails) was studying to be a priest when he met my Mum.

At a young age I saw the hypocrisy, but, as my mum was a huge believer, I was still made to be an altar boy. (Ballarat... very early 80's. )

Luckily I loved science and am fairly logical. My mother has been fleeced by a few religions since and still continues to believe in whatever it is this week... She's 79 now so I'll let her.

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