NZ fees-free study

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#1913485 5-Dec-2017 19:02

Dingbatt: And what makes me even angrier is my son has completed his first year but wants to change his course of study. So he will now begin again in first year classes where it is likely he will be the only one in his lectures that has to pay for his course. And because every class will be chocker with people that don't even know if they want to be there, the quality of service provided will be diminished.

We have at least three sets of friends whose children have no idea what they want to study, but are going to University because it's free.

Unis are going to have a bit of a problem, unless they make university entrance far more difficult. Otherwise they are going to need more staff and buildings for that first year, where many students will just be there for a big party.

dejadeadnz

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#1913492 5-Dec-2017 19:56

Sam91:

As Linux has already suggested, at a bare minimum I would only wipe the loan upon the completion of the degree. I would actually go a step further and incentivise academic performance. If you achieve a "B" average or higher (a low bar) throughout your degree you get your education free. If you fail to achieve that goal, you're stuck with the existing interest free loan system which is already pretty generous.

I'd go further. Give the education free to anyone scoring B+ or better. But I'd demand any student who gets a B- average or worse in any given year to have the full costs of their education that year added to their student loan balance (the government subsidises around 2/3 of the actual costs of someone's tertiary education).

debo

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#1913542 5-Dec-2017 20:38

mattwnz:

The problem is that it makes it more enticing to do study in NZ, and then move overseas, where you can make a lot more money. Currently if you do this with a big loan, you have to pay interest on your loan, but you don't if you stay in NZ. But if you don't need a loan, then you aren't generating interest, so can go overseas without increasing the amount borrowed. So the taxpayer misses out on that interest as well.

I think it is far better to do what Winston wanted, and that is to bond graduates to NZ, so if they remain living in NZ, their loan is automatically wiped over time.

too true. If I had my way, I would do the opposite to Labour. All students will pay 100% FULL fees. Then, for every $1 in tax payed by the student, the government will pay 50c off their students loan. Effectively, this is the same as Labour but only if the student stays in NZ. If the student goes over seas, then the loan will get sold to debt collectors.

mattwnz

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#1913545 5-Dec-2017 20:45

debo:

mattwnz:

The problem is that it makes it more enticing to do study in NZ, and then move overseas, where you can make a lot more money. Currently if you do this with a big loan, you have to pay interest on your loan, but you don't if you stay in NZ. But if you don't need a loan, then you aren't generating interest, so can go overseas without increasing the amount borrowed. So the taxpayer misses out on that interest as well.

I think it is far better to do what Winston wanted, and that is to bond graduates to NZ, so if they remain living in NZ, their loan is automatically wiped over time.

too true. If I had my way, I would do the opposite to Labour. All students will pay 100% FULL fees. Then, for every $1 in tax payed by the student, the government will pay 50c off their students loan. Effectively, this is the same as Labour but only if the student stays in NZ. If the student goes over seas, then the loan will get sold to debt collectors.

Don't students only currently pay about 20% of the true course cost, and the government pays 80%? So if it was 100%, that could means some students in the medical field would be owning amounts equivalent to Auckland house prices.

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#1913547 5-Dec-2017 20:49

what's the point of coming up with suggestions in a forum like this? the govt (who were not voted in, but picked by Winston Peters) is going to do it regardless of what you and I say, so I better save my energy for other threads :)

Linux

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#1913550 5-Dec-2017 20:55

Batman:
what's the point of coming up with suggestions in a forum like this? the govt (who were not voted in, but picked by Winston Peters) is going to do it regardless of what you and I say, so I better save my energy for other threads :)

This government was not voted in but a mix of the party's that got less votes

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#1913551 5-Dec-2017 20:56

Batman:
what's the point of coming up with suggestions in a forum like this? the govt (who were not voted in, but picked by Winston Peters) is going to do it regardless of what you and I say, so I better save my energy for other threads :)

This government was not voted in but a mix of the party's that got less votes

Linux

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#1913556 5-Dec-2017 21:09

Batman:

what's the point of coming up with suggestions in a forum like this? the govt (who were not voted in, but picked by Winston Peters) is going to do it regardless of what you and I say, so I better save my energy for other threads :)

Yawn ... our government was supported by a majority of voters - but if you can't get this, I'd better save my energy for other threads :)

dafman

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#1913561 5-Dec-2017 21:21

Linux:
Batman:

what's the point of coming up with suggestions in a forum like this? the govt (who were not voted in, but picked by Winston Peters) is going to do it regardless of what you and I say, so I better save my energy for other threads :)

This government was not voted in but a mix of the party's that got less votes

Linux

With due respect, your problem lies with trying to force a 'first past the post' mentality into a MMP world. It's no longer about which party gets the most votes, it's about which parties across all voters can form a majority government.

dafman

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#1913566 5-Dec-2017 21:31

A question for those who oppose this scheme ...

With National Superannuation, taxpayers fund weekly payments to many very wealthy retired New Zealanders, who don't need it, do nothing in return for receiving it, yet we continue to pay them week on week on week. Is this not a greater waste of taxpayers money than providing support to New Zealanders to study?

MaxLV

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#1913582 5-Dec-2017 21:55

dafman:

A question for those who oppose this scheme ...

With National Superannuation, taxpayers fund weekly payments to many very wealthy retired New Zealanders, who don't need it, do nothing in return for receiving it, yet we continue to pay them week on week on week. Is this not a greater waste of taxpayers money than providing support to New Zealanders to study?

It's a universal Superannuation scheme. And tell me why you think we (any entitled New Zealander) have to do 'something' to receive it when we having been working and paying taxes for all our working lives towards receiving National Superannuation when we turned 65.

It's not a waste of taxpayer money.

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debo

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#1913603 5-Dec-2017 22:37

dafman:

A question for those who oppose this scheme ...

With National Superannuation, taxpayers fund weekly payments to many very wealthy retired New Zealanders, who don't need it, do nothing in return for receiving it, yet we continue to pay them week on week on week. Is this not a greater waste of taxpayers money than providing support to New Zealanders to study?

Not at all. Retired people have already paid in advance. Students have paid nothing. They expect the working class to pay for their studies and then bugger off to a high paying job overseas. If they stayed in NZ long enough to pay off their debt to society then, fine. Otherwise they are just a cancer and not worthy of any funding at all.

mattwnz

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#1913637 6-Dec-2017 00:22

debo:

dafman:

A question for those who oppose this scheme ...

With National Superannuation, taxpayers fund weekly payments to many very wealthy retired New Zealanders, who don't need it, do nothing in return for receiving it, yet we continue to pay them week on week on week. Is this not a greater waste of taxpayers money than providing support to New Zealanders to study?

Not at all. Retired people have already paid in advance. Students have paid nothing. They expect the working class to pay for their studies and then bugger off to a high paying job overseas. If they stayed in NZ long enough to pay off their debt to society then, fine. Otherwise they are just a cancer and not worthy of any funding at all.

Except that money that retired people paid into it, was never saved. My understanding is that the money currently being paid out as superannuation is coming from the current tax take, or from borrowing. As students already get 80% of their course funded by the taxpayer, and were only paying about 20% themselves before this change, IMO they should contribute to New Zealand after they graduate. Some may choose to do this after they do their OE or later in life of course. But many do go overseas and never return except for holiday.

MaxLV

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#1913643 6-Dec-2017 01:01

mattwnz:

debo:

dafman:

A question for those who oppose this scheme ...

With National Superannuation, taxpayers fund weekly payments to many very wealthy retired New Zealanders, who don't need it, do nothing in return for receiving it, yet we continue to pay them week on week on week. Is this not a greater waste of taxpayers money than providing support to New Zealanders to study?

Not at all. Retired people have already paid in advance. Students have paid nothing. They expect the working class to pay for their studies and then bugger off to a high paying job overseas. If they stayed in NZ long enough to pay off their debt to society then, fine. Otherwise they are just a cancer and not worthy of any funding at all.

Except that money that retired people paid into it, was never saved. My understanding is that the money currently being paid out as superannuation is coming from the current tax take, or from borrowing. As students already get 80% of their course funded by the taxpayer, and were only paying about 20% themselves before this change, IMO they should contribute to New Zealand after they graduate. Some may choose to do this after they do their OE or later in life of course. But many do go overseas and never return except for holiday.

The current balance of the NZ Super Fund is $37.2 billion. As of October 31, it has a 10.5% rate of return p.a. and earnings of $6.6 billion.

The story of the New Zealand Super Fund

Created in 2001 after an extensive public and Parliamentary debate, the Fund is a way for New Zealand to save now in order to make future superannuation costs more affordable. It’s needed because New Zealand’s population is getting older.

The legislation creating the Fund was sponsored by the then Minister of Finance, Sir Michael Cullen. For a long time, we were known colloquially as the “Cullen Fund”.

The Fund operates independently from the Government of the day. No withdrawals are permitted before 2020, and even after the Government starts withdrawing, the Fund will keep growing for many decades.

https://www.nzsuperfund.co.nz/

"The fund has now returned 10.2 per cent [a year], more than double the cost to the Government of contributing to it, over a period of nearly 14 years."

Savage was basing the claim on the returns on Treasury bills.

The statement could be seen as a swipe at National, which ceased contributions to the Super Fund when it took office in 2008 at a time when New Zealand was in recession and fiscal deficits loomed.

This means the Government has not made fresh contributions in nine of the 14 years since the fund was established.

Labour has pledged to immediately resume payments to the NZ Super fund, claiming the fund would be worth more than $50 billion if National had not halted contributions.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/97337661/nz-super-fund-reveals-a-20-per-cent-return-in-12-months

frankv

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#1913652 6-Dec-2017 07:01

debo:

Not at all. Retired people have already paid in advance. Students have paid nothing. They expect the working class to pay for their studies and then bugger off to a high paying job overseas. If they stayed in NZ long enough to pay off their debt to society then, fine. Otherwise they are just a cancer and not worthy of any funding at all.

Bearing in mind that free education is of the most benefit to the working class, who otherwise couldn't afford to educate their children who in turn would be condemned to follow in their parents' footsteps into low-paid work.

And I'd dispute that the working class pays significantly for student allowances or anything else. On low incomes, they don't pay much tax at all. It's the middle classes that pay tax. It really is time to reform the tax system so that the rich contribute their fair share.

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