ZOMG we need those anti-terror surveillance laws right now!

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#1200027 18-Dec-2014 15:47

tl;dr all the replys but i think if there is anything the sydney seige has taught us it's that mass surveillance doesn't work. Australia had the power to intercept this guys comms and had every reason to, could have stopped it before it started but they didn't, instead they are probably intercepting the comms of some guy selling tinnys out the back of his house.

>government security agencies are a joke

MikeB4

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#1200033 18-Dec-2014 15:55

I take it you have conducted a thorough review of the incident, looked at all the records and interviewed all those concerned.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

heylinb4nz

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#1200036 18-Dec-2014 16:08

connector: tl;dr all the replys but i think if there is anything the sydney seige has taught us it's that mass surveillance doesn't work. Australia had the power to intercept this guys comms and had every reason to, could have stopped it before it started but they didn't, instead they are probably intercepting the comms of some guy selling tinnys out the back of his house.

>government security agencies are a joke

To intercept comms you need to be on a watchlist to begin with. There are so many people out there that hold these extremist views that are basically ghosts up until the point they commit a crime like this.

They know they can be watched and there are plenty of low tech options for remaining covert, talking face to face, pen and paper, using cash, disposable cellphones, internet cafes with no video surveillance...

I don't think people realise how useless these laws are when it comes to the intended purpose, and how useful they are when it comes to keeping tabs on joe law abiding public.

Perhaps we need to fix some other more obvious problems such as fixing up our paper based police arms control processes that are ripe for exploitation by non license holders...seriously scary what you can get your hands on even in A-cat.

I personally have raised this with my local AO, and got the whole "police HQ in Wellington are smart and know what they are doing"...wasnt really interested in hearing me out.

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#1200104 18-Dec-2014 18:20

bigal_nz: Just for good measure here is more evidence we do need those laws - yet another one!! http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11375502

Just because this guy is dumb enough to draw attention to himself doesnt mean we dont need the laws because they know who he is.

I read the same article and though it was a pretty damn good example of exactly why we DON'T need mass surveillance laws.

Here is a guy, sitting in a court room, being noted as an extremist. He has been identified without the need for mass spying. The correct course of action is for police or security agencies to seek a warrant to keep an eye on him. They probably have a pretty good case for that, and they can then monitor a direct threat, rather than spying on the whole damn country.

They dont have the resources to have someone watching every fanatical in NZ 24/7.

If that's true, how will new spying laws help? Surely that will just add more noise and more work to already overworked agencies.

Finding the people to target is the hard part. These laws don't bring with them any magical new surveillance technologies they don't already have, the laws are about warrantless, targetless, mass surveillance.

And for every fanatical who draws attention to himself there will be ones who don't. After Sydney it appears the known ones are equally as dangerous.

The ones that don't are probably using burner phones, in person meetings etc anyway. The terrorist events of late (Sydney, Boston etc) were not cases of targets not being able to be identified by other means, but the failure of intelligence and security agencies to appropriately respond to a threat. Why on earth would we give these incompetent agencies even more power, when they can't even get it right when it's staring them in the face?

The ones that are smart enough to not shout their crazy views from the rooftops are the ones who are smart enough to use Tor, VPNs, encryption, burner phones etc etc. Mass surveillance is not the answer to terrorism. Nor do I think our government thinks it is. But cashing in on people's fears is a most excellent way to pass laws that move power from the people to the government.

For all of those here who think that if the government can spy on everyone that the threat of terrorism will be reduced and you can sleep easier at night, I think you are being very naive.

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freitasm

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#1200122 18-Dec-2014 19:28

And for every fanatical who draws attention to himself there will be ones who don't. After Sydney it appears the known ones are equally as dangerous.

The ones that don't are probably using burner phones, in person meetings etc anyway. The terrorist events of late (Sydney, Boston etc) were not cases of targets not being able to be identified by other means, but the failure of intelligence and security agencies to appropriately respond to a threat. Why on earth would we give these incompetent agencies even more power, when they can't even get it right when it's staring them in the face?

So true. Both Boston and Sydney perpetrators have been flagged before and both were let go by the authorities who had ALREADY everything they needed to get a warrant and keep them locked up or under surveillance.

New laws won't make this easier. New laws will not automatically upgrade the slow brains behind implementation.

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MikeB4

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#1200124 18-Dec-2014 19:32

freitasm:
And for every fanatical who draws attention to himself there will be ones who don't. After Sydney it appears the known ones are equally as dangerous.

The ones that don't are probably using burner phones, in person meetings etc anyway. The terrorist events of late (Sydney, Boston etc) were not cases of targets not being able to be identified by other means, but the failure of intelligence and security agencies to appropriately respond to a threat. Why on earth would we give these incompetent agencies even more power, when they can't even get it right when it's staring them in the face?

So true. Both Boston and Sydney perpetrators have been flagged before and both were let go by the authorities who had ALREADY everything they needed to get a warrant and keep them locked up or under surveillance.

New laws won't make this easier. New laws will not automatically upgrade the slow brains behind implementation.

At least the Government is taking the risks seriously and providing necessary additional tools.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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JWR

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#1200178 18-Dec-2014 21:15

freitasm: Madonna's new album leaked and she declared it an act of terrorism!

Personally, I would call releasing/leaking it a crime against humanity.

Rikkitic

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#1200354 19-Dec-2014 09:39

Sony has caved into terrorism and withdrawn the film. This is a major assault on democracy and free speech. So where is that qualified civilian with the Glock? Come on Captain America. We need you now.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

heylinb4nz

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#1200356 19-Dec-2014 09:41

KiwiNZ:
freitasm:
And for every fanatical who draws attention to himself there will be ones who don't. After Sydney it appears the known ones are equally as dangerous.

The ones that don't are probably using burner phones, in person meetings etc anyway. The terrorist events of late (Sydney, Boston etc) were not cases of targets not being able to be identified by other means, but the failure of intelligence and security agencies to appropriately respond to a threat. Why on earth would we give these incompetent agencies even more power, when they can't even get it right when it's staring them in the face?

So true. Both Boston and Sydney perpetrators have been flagged before and both were let go by the authorities who had ALREADY everything they needed to get a warrant and keep them locked up or under surveillance.

New laws won't make this easier. New laws will not automatically upgrade the slow brains behind implementation.

At least the Government is taking the risks seriously and providing necessary additional tools.

Taking it seriously means nothing if you aren't doing something meaningful to address it. This is why government and their agencies are always busy taking things seriously and coming up with meaningless ineffective guff to address it (at the tax payers expense)

Where do we start

- 1kmh speed tolerance
- 1.5m passing distance around cyclists
- anti smacking law
- thumbhole stock on a rifle = pistol grip therefore its an MSSA
- a ton of other useless firearms laws aimed at legal owners (real dumb stuff) email me for a list.
- Hamilton city council public safety act, $20,000 fine for homeless people peeing in public

Feel free people to continue adding other examples

Lots of action but what results ??? How long are we going to tolerate this level of uselessness from our government ?

freitasm

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#1200358 19-Dec-2014 09:42

Rikkitic: So where is that qualified civilian with the Glock? Come on Captain America. We need you now.

Captain America is not a civilian.

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ajobbins

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#1200426 19-Dec-2014 10:19

KiwiNZ: At least the Government is taking the risks seriously and providing necessary additional tools.

Except that they aren't. Mass spying is a very poor tool when it comes to detecting and stopping terrorists.

A great tool for knowing what you're citizens are up to, tho.

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#1200434 19-Dec-2014 10:51

connector: tl;dr all the replys but i think if there is anything the sydney seige has taught us it's that mass surveillance doesn't work. Australia had the power to intercept this guys comms and had every reason to, could have stopped it before it started but they didn't, instead they are probably intercepting the comms of some guy selling tinnys out the back of his house.

>government security agencies are a joke

I don't agree with the "you can be a terrorist without technology, therefore there is no point in electronic surveillance" argument. It's a bit like saying "you can hold up an airliner without a gun (ever had a broken wine bottle shoved in your face?) therefore there is no point in screening passengers for guns".

Electronic surveillance makes planning and executing significant terror acts much harder. It will detect a proportion of attacks that would otherwise not be detected. Sure, it's not perfect but if it helps in the battle against terrorists without placing undue restrictions on liberties, then it sounds like a good idea.

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#1200435 19-Dec-2014 10:53

Rikkitic: Sony has caved into terrorism and withdrawn the film. This is a major assault on democracy and free speech. So where is that qualified civilian with the Glock? Come on Captain America. We need you now.

I'm not sure how that would assist in this situation? Perhaps you could enlighten us?

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#1200436 19-Dec-2014 10:54

shk292:
connector: tl;dr all the replys but i think if there is anything the sydney seige has taught us it's that mass surveillance doesn't work. Australia had the power to intercept this guys comms and had every reason to, could have stopped it before it started but they didn't, instead they are probably intercepting the comms of some guy selling tinnys out the back of his house.

>government security agencies are a joke

I don't agree with the "you can be a terrorist without technology, therefore there is no point in electronic surveillance" argument. It's a bit like saying "you can hold up an airliner without a gun (ever had a broken wine bottle shoved in your face?) therefore there is no point in screening passengers for guns".

Electronic surveillance makes planning and executing significant terror acts much harder. It will detect a proportion of attacks that would otherwise not be detected. Sure, it's not perfect but if it helps in the battle against terrorists without placing undue restrictions on liberties, then it sounds like a good idea.

I, for one, have never had a broken wine bottle shoved in my face...!!

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#1200438 19-Dec-2014 10:56

heylinb4nz:
KiwiNZ:
freitasm:
And for every fanatical who draws attention to himself there will be ones who don't. After Sydney it appears the known ones are equally as dangerous.

The ones that don't are probably using burner phones, in person meetings etc anyway. The terrorist events of late (Sydney, Boston etc) were not cases of targets not being able to be identified by other means, but the failure of intelligence and security agencies to appropriately respond to a threat. Why on earth would we give these incompetent agencies even more power, when they can't even get it right when it's staring them in the face?

So true. Both Boston and Sydney perpetrators have been flagged before and both were let go by the authorities who had ALREADY everything they needed to get a warrant and keep them locked up or under surveillance.

New laws won't make this easier. New laws will not automatically upgrade the slow brains behind implementation.

At least the Government is taking the risks seriously and providing necessary additional tools.

Taking it seriously means nothing if you aren't doing something meaningful to address it. This is why government and their agencies are always busy taking things seriously and coming up with meaningless ineffective guff to address it (at the tax payers expense)

Where do we start
- 1kmh speed tolerance
- 1.5m passing distance around cyclists
- anti smacking law
- thumbhole stock on a rifle = pistol grip therefore its an MSSA
- a ton of other useless firearms laws aimed at legal owners (real dumb stuff) email me for a list.
- Hamilton city council public safety act, $20,000 fine for homeless people peeing in public

Feel free people to continue adding other examples

Lots of action but what results ??? How long are we going to tolerate this level of uselessness from our government ?

Don't forget that the recent law change now makes the rule "We, the Police, say that firearm is a restricted firearm and therefore it is!" with no actual definition etc.

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