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450 posts

Ultimate Geek

#542820 8-Nov-2011 20:30

Talkiet:
MikeyPI:

You didnt present any information. You presented a right wing blog, asking the current finance minister questions, supported by a table of figures with no date, supporting data, or any information of any kind...

Update

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/budget/2011/taxpayers/02.htm#_whopaystax

I hope the treasury is a good enough source of the information for you.

Regards - N

Thats individual taxble income, old Bill was talking about households.

Now old Bill's prob used the magic politician calculator to confer that into his statement, but to arrive there he has to manipute data that doesnt support his statement, leaving out the fact Stats NZ proved his claims of 1.3mil households with neutral tax take is rubbish because their arent 1.3mil households to satrt with..

He also using multiple groups in each of his points some across all three; ie to get to his 10%, to have to go all the way down to the 80K-90K range, which would invariably been included in the under 110K household stats, as the dual / single income household numbers arent provided as 2 people working earning a combined 100K, with kids, is verrry different to one person earning 100K, mum not working to raise kids, & is taxed differently too.

Not the best data to support your argument but hey..

Talkiet

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#542830 8-Nov-2011 20:50

MikeyPI:
Not the best data to support your argument but hey..

Stop trying to deflect.

I asserted that "High wage earners pay FAR MORE in tax than the benefit they receive, low wage earners and unemployed pay FAR LESS tax than the benefit they receive."

You asked "Proof of you stats please?" and asserted "Thats misinformed rubbish.."

I provided a link with stats sourced from the Finance Minister.

You attacked this by attacking the blog they were quoted on, proceeded to misread the most basic of details... (You said "Notice that 1) he defines lowest income as 43% of population, at an income as $110,000pa. Hardly low income." - What was meant was that the lowest 43% of household incomes... NOT that $110k is low income!)

I have now provided a similar set of stats, sourced from the treasury showing, among other things,

- the top 5% of earners (by taxable income) pay 31% of the total tax take
- the top 10% of earners pay 43% of the total tax take
- the bottom 56% (FIFTY-SIX PERCENT) of earners pay 13% of the total tax take.

And you seem to have conveniently forgotten you said I was writing "Mis-informed rubbish" and you asked for proof.

All I've done is try to provide it, but you don't seem to accept what the Finance Minister or Treasury have to say on the topic.

So with that, I'm done.

Goodnight, and good luck.

N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

gzt

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#542838 8-Nov-2011 21:14

The G20 predictably failed to agree on an FTT:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/04/g20-tax-idUSN1E7A302520111104

Some credit Occupy for the Obama administration changing their G20 position - from "against" to "if you want to do it by yourselves we won't disagree with that". Subtle difference, but it could mean the administration did not actively lobby against FTT in the G20.

France and Germany will continue with proposals for the European Commission to implement an FTT for Eurozone countries, but they still have to get this past the UK somehow.

UK government has been dead against an FTT. Recently UK has been trying to sound a little more neutral in approach because of Occupy.

Canada, India and China remain against.

Interestingly, India and the UK already have a securities transaction tax in some form already.

Back in the USA - a few days ago a couple of democrats introduced legislation for a 0.03% FTT - "The Wall Street Trading and Speculators Tax Act". Labour unions are beginning a campaign in support of that proposal.

Ragnor

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#542851 8-Nov-2011 21:43

MikeyPI:

1) Who said anything about beneficiaries, I was talking min wage vs top bracket earners. Social welfare for unemployed / solo mums is another conversation, requiring different solutions and analysis due to actual vs social cost.

2) So in height of the capitalist boom (last 50 years) of more and more right wing ideology, your friends left anyway? I fail to see your point then.....

A business only has staff if they add more value to the business in labour then the business pays them in wages otherwise there would be no point having any staff.

How do you propose to pay low wage unskilled workers a higher wage (then the value they add to a business) without either subsidising the workers directly or subsidising the businesses?

Before the 80's we had very socialist governments in the 60's and 70's, they failed miserably and almost bankrupted the country.

friendlymonkey

180 posts

Master Geek

#543938 10-Nov-2011 20:02

codyc1515: Go occupy a job.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/jobs

Great generalisation. Most of the people camping out here in Christchurch have jobs. They go to and from the campsite to work each day.

codyc1515

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#543941 10-Nov-2011 20:06

friendlymonkey:
codyc1515: Go occupy a job.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/jobs

Great generalisation. Most of the people camping out here in Christchurch have jobs. They go to and from the campsite to work each day.

If you have jobs then stop complaining, hypocrites! If you have a job then you are paying taxes which is, in effect, fueling "the system" further and increasing "the divide".

dontpanic42

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#543995 10-Nov-2011 21:39

codyc1515: If you have jobs then stop complaining, hypocrites! If you have a job then you are paying taxes which is, in effect, fueling "the system" further and increasing "the divide".

Precisely why people are advocating to change the system they are forced to pay taxes into.

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freitasm

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#546736 18-Nov-2011 08:05

As thought, these guys have no idea what they are talking about: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-ows-demands/

expression

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Master Geek

#546744 18-Nov-2011 08:29

freitasm: As thought, these guys have no idea what they are talking about: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-ows-demands/

They're absolutely nuts...

freitasm

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#546745 18-Nov-2011 08:31

So they are the liberal antithesis to the Tea Party?

geekiegeek

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#546746 18-Nov-2011 08:32

It's this one that gets me "Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality." I came accross the a banner at the Wellington occupy that had "Maximum wage $50 per hour" on it the other day.

Why would anyone bother to do anything more then they have to to get their $50 an hour? Where is the incentive to work hard or grow skills if there is no reward?

Oh thats right we should just do everything for the good of all.

Oh and where would all the tax income come from if no one earned over $50 or are they planning to tax $35 of that so we are all equal on $15 an hour?

Dreams are free. Reality isnt.

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Master Geek

#546747 18-Nov-2011 08:33

freitasm: So they are the liberal antithesis to the Tea Party?

Pretty much.

geekiegeek

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#546748 18-Nov-2011 08:38

Love this comment - "SERIOUSLY PEOPLE???? Who wrote these things??? If you truly want what you have requested, I would suggest investing in creating a time machine and moving to Germany circa 1938, or the USSR circa 1950"

freitasm

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#546749 18-Nov-2011 08:41

In Soviet Russia the NKVD occupies you...

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Master Geek

#546750 18-Nov-2011 08:45

geekiegeek: It's this one that gets me "Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality." I came accross the a banner at the Wellington occupy that had "Maximum wage $50 per hour" on it the other day.

Why would anyone bother to do anything more then they have to to get their $50 an hour? Where is the incentive to work hard or grow skills if there is no reward?

Oh thats right we should just do everything for the good of all.

Oh and where would all the tax income come from if no one earned over $50 or are they planning to tax $35 of that so we are all equal on $15 an hour?

Dreams are free. Reality isnt.

Seems they're going to tax the hell out of the rich to pay for them to sit on their ass:

"Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%."

They really expect the rich to stay in America if this came in?

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