Being stopped, detained and searched in the Warehouse

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#847283 29-Jun-2013 23:23

stuzzo:
Dratsab:
stuzzo:
1080p: I think that more people need to know that it is police (with reasonable cause) alone who are legally permitted to detain and enforce a search of your belongings and no one else.

There is a caveat on that though, they can detain (not search) you in some circumstances.

Really?

From Wikipedia regarding NZ:

"Specifically, the Crimes Act 1961 states that everyone (not just New Zealand citizens) is justified in arresting without warrant:[25]

Any person found committing any offence against this Act which the maximum punishment is not less than 3 years' imprisonment; or
Any person found at night (9pm till 6am) committing any offence against this Act."

I did work in the security industry for 21 years so had a reasonable knowledge of this.

Your reply to 1080p clearly suggests police can't search except in restricted circumstances. You need to take your focus off Wikipedia and s35 of the Crimes Act and take a look at s315 as well as clicking on the S&S links I provided in my first post.

stuzzo

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#847285 29-Jun-2013 23:42

Dratsab:
stuzzo:
Dratsab:
stuzzo:
1080p: I think that more people need to know that it is police (with reasonable cause) alone who are legally permitted to detain and enforce a search of your belongings and no one else.

There is a caveat on that though, they can detain (not search) you in some circumstances.

Really?

From Wikipedia regarding NZ:

"Specifically, the Crimes Act 1961 states that everyone (not just New Zealand citizens) is justified in arresting without warrant:[25]

Any person found committing any offence against this Act which the maximum punishment is not less than 3 years' imprisonment; or
Any person found at night (9pm till 6am) committing any offence against this Act."

I did work in the security industry for 21 years so had a reasonable knowledge of this.

Your reply to 1080p clearly suggests police can't search except in restricted circumstances. You need to take your focus off Wikipedia and s35 of the Crimes Act and take a look at s315 as well as clicking on the S&S links I provided in my first post.

The "they" in the post was a reference to the business owner not the police, the person quoting had truncated some of it. My rely was regarding the right to arrest by any person which, in the circumstances, might be the business owner."

The Wikipedia reference was basically the relevant section of the Crimes Act regarding the right to arrest by any person.

sbiddle

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#847334 30-Jun-2013 10:11

While it's bit late now the best thing you can do in a situation like this is ring 111 and say you are being unlawfully detained!

Finch

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#847350 30-Jun-2013 11:10

I always get nervous when I walk through the detectors(?) in any store like the supermarket/warehouse. I know I would ever steal anything but sometimes those things go off anyway.

Local DVD rental is 1 minute walk away from the supermarket where I live so sometimes when people go to rent a movie, then walk to the supermarket the detectors beep when leaving.

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#847363 30-Jun-2013 12:24

Yup, which is why the beeper going off is no reason to suspect that someone is stealing anything as they are not coded to be specific to the items in the shop.

when they get out of the 20th century and rfid tag things instead of cheap passive tags and they can ID what you are stealing and that it was from their shop then those beepers might actually mean something.

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#847379 30-Jun-2013 13:58

Finch: I always get nervous when I walk through the detectors(?) in any store like the supermarket/warehouse. I know I would ever steal anything but sometimes those things go off anyway.

Local DVD rental is 1 minute walk away from the supermarket where I live so sometimes when people go to rent a movie, then walk to the supermarket the detectors beep when leaving.

Barriers will only go off if they detect a tag. The odds of them going off for anything else are virtually non existant.

The example above you use if one of a retailer using a anti theft system incorrectly. It's pretty much a "we think we'll solve our theft problems by ruining in the integrigy of the whole EAS system". Rather than blaming the supermarket as you're doing, you should be going back to the video store and lecture them on the correct operation of an EAS system because what they're doing is wrong. If they're not willing to operate the system correctly I'd just avoid going to that store, in the same way I'd never buy anything from Kathmandu for the same reasons.

Kathmandu used to be the worst offender when they started source tagging all their goods and not bothering to deactivate tags correctly st stores, and for a long period of time weren't doing any deactivation of goods from their mail order (something I blogged about here). This type of attitude ruins the whole integrity of the EAS system making it pretty much worthless for any retailer trying to use it.

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#847394 30-Jun-2013 14:57

hdinsider: Did they apologise once they found nothing? I would hope that a false accusation would at least involve the duty manager saying sorry and explaining their reasons for the search.

...

No. After the bag search, my wife was told that she was allowed to leave. Which, even though there was no physical restraint, indicates that the store wanted her to understand that she was not free to leave without permission. In other words, she was being detained which appears to be unlawful.

We went back to the store in order to see if we could spot the man and get some ID before writing to the Warehouse HQ but could not spot him.

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Zeon

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#847396 30-Jun-2013 14:59

What does "detainment" actually mean? If its physical restraint would that constitute assault and you can fight back?

She should have just walked out.

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blair003

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#847401 30-Jun-2013 15:14

Zeon: What does "detainment" actually mean? If its physical restraint would that constitute assault and you can fight back?

She should have just walked out.

I agree, she should have walked out.

Basically from what I understand she was told to stay there and she did so, she was told to show her handbag contents, and she did so. If she said no and was forced into staying or showing her handbag contents I could see the line being a bit more grey.

But AFAIK if I approach you in the street and ask or tell you to stay there, or ask/tell you to show me whats in your pockets, I have not violated any laws. Maybe it violates some sort of nuisance rule if I am persistent, but if you just agree to do it then what have I done wrong?

(Obviously normally you would look bemused then just tell me where to go in such a situation)

Perhaps you should think about what you are trying to achieve with your action -- you may find you can get what you are after by complaining to customer services/management or head office.

pctek

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#847426 30-Jun-2013 16:46

Come on, it happened to me once in a large shop - they accused me of stealing bras. Apparently some empty hangers were found. Wasn't me, they took me out back and made threats, I didn't have any bag with me, and clothing was such that it was pretty difficult to conceal anything on person, so I said, no wasn't me and call the police if you think you need to, then I'll make a complaint.

They let me go then.

I certainly didn't fuss about the original request to go out back.

Warehouse and other stores do have signs saying Bags will be searched. If you are innocent and make a fuss - like pushing past and leaving, it would lead to more excitement and entertainment for other customers watching.

Get over it, someone nicked something, they may have mixed her up with another women.....no drama as she didn't do it, and was allowed to leave....

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#847438 30-Jun-2013 17:18

pctek: Come on, it happened to me once in a large shop - they accused me of stealing bras. Apparently some empty hangers were found. Wasn't me, they took me out back and made threats, I didn't have any bag with me, and clothing was such that it was pretty difficult to conceal anything on person, so I said, no wasn't me and call the police if you think you need to, then I'll make a complaint.

I was never stopped but I always thought that if that happened I would say upfront "sure, but you will pay for my time".

If on top of that there was to be accusation and threats... Oh, boy, then the party would start and I would be the first to call the police.

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#847451 30-Jun-2013 17:39

sbiddle: Kathmandu used to be the worst offender when they started source tagging all their goods and not bothering to deactivate tags correctly st stores, and for a long period of time weren't doing any deactivation of goods from their mail order (something I blogged about here). This type of attitude ruins the whole integrity of the EAS system making it pretty much worthless for any retailer trying to use it.

Agree about Kathmandu. Once went into a store with my then teenage son. He was wearing a thermal singlet purchased some months previously from a different Kathmandu store and set the the alarm off.

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#847475 30-Jun-2013 18:53

allan:
sbiddle: Kathmandu used to be the worst offender when they started source tagging all their goods and not bothering to deactivate tags correctly st stores, and for a long period of time weren't doing any deactivation of goods from their mail order (something I blogged about here). This type of attitude ruins the whole integrity of the EAS system making it pretty much worthless for any retailer trying to use it.

Agree about Kathmandu. Once went into a store with my then teenage son. He was wearing a thermal singlet purchased some months previously from a different Kathmandu store and set the the alarm off.

Heard about some lady trying to steal from Kathmandu last week, she got nicked because she hadcome back after stealing from the Macpac store earlier in the morning. Not sure if alarms went off, or the Macpac dudes saw her come back and told Kathmandu guys she was suspicious.

I chased a teenage girl down the street once after she swiped chocolate bars from a dairy and ran. The fright it gave her was probably worthwhile.

Time to find a new industry!

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#847488 30-Jun-2013 20:04

blair003:
...
But AFAIK if I approach you in the street and ask or tell you to stay there, or ask/tell you to show me whats in your pockets, I have not violated any laws. Maybe it violates some sort of nuisance rule if I am persistent, but if you just agree to do it then what have I done wrong?
...

I know that US law is not the same as UK or NZ law but all are based on the same language and underlying concepts.

In the case of OJ Simpson. US law interpreted the mere words "nobody leaves the room" to amount to an act of kidnapping earning OJ a 33 year jail term. Now I am not even close to suggesting that such an interpretation is likely in NZ but the underlying concept is that a verbal instruction issued from a position of perceived coercive power can be compared to the use of such an instruction when backed up by coercive force.

In the UK, walking up to somebody in the street and telling them to stay where they are or to turn out their pockets is an offence of both obstruction and breach of the peace. I do not know how NZ law views such actions.

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#847537 30-Jun-2013 22:50

Playing devil’s advocate here, as we do only have one side of the story.

For all any of us know, maybe she only felt like she was being accused of stealing because of the humiliation of being asked to show the contents of her bag, and wasn't accused at all, maybe. It is amazing how things change when relaying a description of an adrenaline filled event or situation.

But anyone who wears something bulky, or carries a bag or wears a backpack into a store should reasonably be expected to be stopped and asked to show the contents of such items at some stage. I've certainly been asked on occasion when wearing a backpack, and I reasonably expected as such.

If it really is an issue to you/her then you should go into the store on a Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday (these are the days you WILL find a store manager in the store if they're not on leave or in a meeting - they either work Sun to Thurs, or Tues to Sat) and ask to talk to the Store Manager, otherwise you should find the Asst Store Manager is there. Lay out her complaint to them.

And as it will all be on the stores security footage you need to make sure her story is factual or she and you are going to look silly. You are more likely to get listened to by going to the Store Manager of where it happened, and they can deal to the root of any issue that there is, rather than the overkill of going to any other level. It is only on genuine failure of the correct level that you then escalate.

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