IN or OUT? All on in the UK for the next 10 weeks.

Forums › Off topic › IN or OUT? All on in the UK for the next 10 weeks.

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | ... | 13

18009 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 8465

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1534370 17-Apr-2016 13:12

jarledb:
Geektastic:
Were I voting, I would be voting to leave. Europe offers Britain nothing it could not get by way of trade deals rather than membership (as other countries have proved)

If you are referring to Norway and Iceland, that's probably not deals you would want.

It's the same deal as being a part of the EU, minus voting rights

However since voting and democracy are somewhat "flexible" in the EU I'm not sure how much of a loss that is!

Geektastic

18009 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 8465

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1534371 17-Apr-2016 13:14

PhantomNVD: Well, ferries do cost money to run... But their is this tunnel thing they dug a while back that could definitely ease the issue if it were centrally funded rather than user pays...

The ferries could be run by EU budget as easily as phantom olive grooves in Greece and private jets for Eurocrats....

Geektastic

18009 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 8465

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1534373 17-Apr-2016 13:24

No one seems to get the point I'm making by referring to pre EU Britain so I'll try again.

It's an illustration of the fact that Britain used to govern itself. It did so for thousands of years.

Many voters in the referendum have no knowledge of that and no experience of it. They grew up in the EU. They know no other way.

Asking them to vote to leave is an uphill struggle because being out would be a big unknown for them. They have never experienced 'out'. They do not know how well it could work. Britain no more needs to be in the EU to survive than NZ needs to become a state of Australia to do so.

roobarb

705 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 659

Trusted

#1534416 17-Apr-2016 14:55

Geektastic: No one seems to get the point I'm making by referring to pre EU Britain so I'll try again.

It's an illustration of the fact that Britain used to govern itself. It did so for thousands of years.

The vote to leave EU is a vote about the future, in reality, in the world as we find it. It is not a vote about time travel into an imaginary romantic point in history.

Britain does not rule the high seas, we can't go round grabbing countries and force them to send raw cotton to Manchester and make them buy our sheets. The world has changed, we don't have an empire and we don't sell to the world anymore in the way we used to.

The common market was supposed to be about easing trade, leave the EU and every transaction becomes that little bit harder. Having the EU passport means freedom to travel and work in the entire continent.

Yes, immigration is a problem, that is unavoidable in an over populated world, but we are also supposed to believe in freedom for the individual, however perhaps a good first step would be not playing regime change chess and screwing up other people's lives.

PhantomNVD

2619 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 759
Inactive user

#1534429 17-Apr-2016 15:28

SJB:
PhantomNVD: So, as a uk citizen with a current passport, how do I organise to get my vote counted, without having to leave NZ to do so?

Just Google 'EU Referendum overseas'. Plenty of info.

You must have left the UK within the last 15 years though. This is a requirement for voting in any UK referendum or election at the moment although the current government is proposing to scrap this rule in the near future.

Thanks, that was a quick easy process with a current passport, access to my NHI number and having left only 8 years ago (planning to go back for a holiday to see the family again soon)

PhantomNVD

2619 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 759
Inactive user

#1534430 17-Apr-2016 15:34

I still see the UK as needing independence to prosper, the pound is still the strongest currency in the world for a reason, but socio-economic policy which suits the continent needn't suit the island (and often doesn't!)

Should Canada become a 'part' of the USA too?

While Mexico might love to (all the illegal immigrants instantly breathe a sigh of relief) the USA benifits little by annexing Canada, but Canada loses much to gain... What?

This is what the UK actually faces... If they don't "get out" they become more and more a 'cog' in the EU, and are slowly losing relevance in the process.

If the EU is really 'all that', why didn't/shouldn't the UK take up the Euro too? I'm sure Greece would love it if they did!

HP

Shop now for HP laptops and other devices (affiliate link).

Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 10018

#1534526 17-Apr-2016 19:01

Geektastic:

It's an illustration of the fact that Britain used to govern itself. It did so for thousands of years.

LOL. You can't be serious.

DaveB

1139 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 456
Inactive user

#1534544 17-Apr-2016 19:38

Fred99:

Geektastic:

It's an illustration of the fact that Britain used to govern itself. It did so for thousands of years.

LOL. You can't be serious.

I think he is very serious. And I have to agree with him ..... although history was not my strongest subject. The loss of Sovereignty to older Brits, is a very important issue. Sadly it does not have the same importance for the younger Brit "me, me, me" generation.

When I was in my 20's and 30's (many years ago now), I never fully considered the country that I had left behind and saw NZ as the place to be. Over the years, as I matured and looking at the changes every time I went back to the UK every two years or so, it became more and more apparent why I had left my family behind. It was because Britain was rapidly changing due to ever increasing immigration whilst losing her Sovereignty in the process.

Enoch was quite correct, he just got the timing, external political and religious influences wrong. His belief? The emerging "open door policy" and "European influence" would result in an unwanted "political correctness" that could potentially destroy the country, or in the very least, put it generations behind.

1970's politicians predicting political correctness? You better believe it.

I guess you have to live it to understand it.

DaveB

1139 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 456
Inactive user

#1534553 17-Apr-2016 19:53

Geektastic:
However since voting and democracy are somewhat "flexible" in the EU I'm not sure how much of a loss that is!

Wasn't it suggested recently that referendums should be banned? Apparently voters keep coming up with the wrong answer!!

shk292

2916 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2040

Lifetime subscriber

#1534571 17-Apr-2016 20:50

DaveB:
Fred99:

Geektastic:

It's an illustration of the fact that Britain used to govern itself. It did so for thousands of years.

LOL. You can't be serious.

I think he is very serious. And I have to agree with him ..... although history was not my strongest subject. The loss of Sovereignty to older Brits, is a very important issue. Sadly it does not have the same importance for the younger Brit "me, me, me" generation.

When I was in my 20's and 30's (many years ago now), I never fully considered the country that I had left behind and saw NZ as the place to be. Over the years, as I matured and looking at the changes every time I went back to the UK every two years or so, it became more and more apparent why I had left my family behind. It was because Britain was rapidly changing due to ever increasing immigration whilst losing her Sovereignty in the process.

Enoch was quite correct, he just got the timing, external political and religious influences wrong. His belief? The emerging "open door policy" and "European influence" would result in an unwanted "political correctness" that could potentially destroy the country, or in the very least, put it generations behind.

1970's politicians predicting political correctness? You better believe it.

I guess you have to live it to understand it.

I agree with this, remaining in the EU will see a gradual erosion of UK's sovereignty and national identity, increasing overcrowding through immigration and replacement of traditional values with those immigrants who refuse to assimilate into their adopted society. I'd certainly be voting to leave if I lived there or had any intention of returning

Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 10018

#1534583 17-Apr-2016 21:26

DaveB:

Fred99:

Geektastic:

It's an illustration of the fact that Britain used to govern itself. It did so for thousands of years.

LOL. You can't be serious.

I think he is very serious. And I have to agree with him ..... although history was not my strongest subject. The loss of Sovereignty to older Brits, is a very important issue. Sadly it does not have the same importance for the younger Brit "me, me, me" generation.

When I was in my 20's and 30's (many years ago now), I never fully considered the country that I had left behind and saw NZ as the place to be. Over the years, as I matured and looking at the changes every time I went back to the UK every two years or so, it became more and more apparent why I had left my family behind. It was because Britain was rapidly changing due to ever increasing immigration whilst losing her Sovereignty in the process.

Enoch was quite correct, he just got the timing, external political and religious influences wrong. His belief? The emerging "open door policy" and "European influence" would result in an unwanted "political correctness" that could potentially destroy the country, or in the very least, put it generations behind.

1970's politicians predicting political correctness? You better believe it.

I guess you have to live it to understand it.

"Thousands of years" is ridiculous. A few hundred years of an empire - invasion, colonisation - somewhat more benevolent (perhaps) than the Spanish, the Portuguese, the French.

Romans, Saxons, Normans, Vikings. Some wild imagination that "Britain" has a history of homogeneous rule over the millennia - and that the people have common roots. There may be reason to leave the EU - but xenophobia is a very poor one.

Lenovo

Shop now for Lenovo laptops and other devices (affiliate link).

Geektastic

18009 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 8465

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1534615 17-Apr-2016 22:05

DaveB:

Geektastic:
However since voting and democracy are somewhat "flexible" in the EU I'm not sure how much of a loss that is!

Wasn't it suggested recently that referendums should be banned? Apparently voters keep coming up with the wrong answer!!

Yes. And I think they ran one twice in Ireland because they had the wrong answer first time round...!

Geektastic

18009 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 8465

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1534620 17-Apr-2016 22:18

Fred99:

DaveB:

Fred99:

Geektastic:

It's an illustration of the fact that Britain used to govern itself. It did so for thousands of years.

LOL. You can't be serious.

I think he is very serious. And I have to agree with him ..... although history was not my strongest subject. The loss of Sovereignty to older Brits, is a very important issue. Sadly it does not have the same importance for the younger Brit "me, me, me" generation.

When I was in my 20's and 30's (many years ago now), I never fully considered the country that I had left behind and saw NZ as the place to be. Over the years, as I matured and looking at the changes every time I went back to the UK every two years or so, it became more and more apparent why I had left my family behind. It was because Britain was rapidly changing due to ever increasing immigration whilst losing her Sovereignty in the process.

Enoch was quite correct, he just got the timing, external political and religious influences wrong. His belief? The emerging "open door policy" and "European influence" would result in an unwanted "political correctness" that could potentially destroy the country, or in the very least, put it generations behind.

1970's politicians predicting political correctness? You better believe it.

I guess you have to live it to understand it.

"Thousands of years" is ridiculous. A few hundred years of an empire - invasion, colonisation - somewhat more benevolent (perhaps) than the Spanish, the Portuguese, the French.

Romans, Saxons, Normans, Vikings. Some wild imagination that "Britain" has a history of homogeneous rule over the millennia - and that the people have common roots. There may be reason to leave the EU - but xenophobia is a very poor one.

I see you have little understanding of this.

This has nothing to do with the Empire. Britain has run itself in some form for a very very long time. It has been run by unelected officials in Brussels for a very very short time.

The Common Market was a relatively sensible idea. That morphed into a controlling autocracy with no further consultation with the voters and foolish politicians - particularly in the post-Thatcher period - have allowed ever-more power to be transferred from Westminster to Brussels.

A common trading block has no reason, for example, to be creating a court of law that can supersede the highest national court in the land and actually disapply UK law where it finds that UK law has not given sufficient or correct effect to EU law. A common trading block has no need to tell sovereign nations that they cannot control who enters their borders. Imagine if the PM of Australia could unilaterally allow 100,000 unscreened refugees to enter New Zealand and NZ could do nothing whatsoever about that?

British people never voted to join a body that would become the United States of Europe in which Britain would be the equivalent of, say, Texas in the USA: nor where they ever even asked to vote on that proposition. It was imposed on them, in effect by stealth.

They have - finally - one opportunity to undo that.

Personally I think Project Fear will triumph and they will vote to stay - after which, the EU will know it can continue on unchecked because the last glimmer of dissent has been extinguished.

roobarb

705 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 659

Trusted

#1534623 17-Apr-2016 22:25

Geektastic: No one seems to get the point I'm making by referring to pre EU Britain so I'll try again.

It's an illustration of the fact that Britain used to govern itself. It did so for thousands of years.

Lets start with being ruled by the Romans for four hundred years.

Then the dark ages, possibly with the mythical Briton Arthur

Then invaded by and ruled by the Danes in the North East, and Anglo-Saxons in the south west

With the acceptance of Christianity, we also accepted rule from Rome all over again.

Then invaded by the Normans and ruled by their descendants for a while, even the great Richard the Lionheart would gladly have sold England

Eventually the French kings became English, but we got bored with them and had to ask for the Scots to give us their king.

That worked out for a bit until we had to chop one of their heads off and become a republic.

That didn't work out to well so got the executed King's son back in, lost patience with that line and imported another king from the continent to sort us out.

So over the past couple of thousand years we have numerous examples of being ruled by those from the continent.

As for the empire, the offer from Germany for peace at the start of WWII was stay out of the war and you can keep your empire. Instead we decided to try and save Europe, and the price from the US to save us was bankruptcy and losing the empire.

The British Isles are part of the continent of Europe no matter how much we try and deny it.

We proved that having incestuous royal families intermarried across Europe could not prevent war, perhaps strong economic ties could.

I'd even suggest that over that 2,000 year period, over half of that had the rulers speaking a different language to the native peasants.

Geektastic

18009 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 8465

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1534691 18-Apr-2016 09:03

roobarb:

Geektastic: No one seems to get the point I'm making by referring to pre EU Britain so I'll try again.

It's an illustration of the fact that Britain used to govern itself. It did so for thousands of years.

Lets start with being ruled by the Romans for four hundred years.

Then the dark ages, possibly with the mythical Briton Arthur

Then invaded by and ruled by the Danes in the North East, and Anglo-Saxons in the south west

With the acceptance of Christianity, we also accepted rule from Rome all over again.

Then invaded by the Normans and ruled by their descendants for a while, even the great Richard the Lionheart would gladly have sold England

Eventually the French kings became English, but we got bored with them and had to ask for the Scots to give us their king.

That worked out for a bit until we had to chop one of their heads off and become a republic.

That didn't work out to well so got the executed King's son back in, lost patience with that line and imported another king from the continent to sort us out.

So over the past couple of thousand years we have numerous examples of being ruled by those from the continent.

As for the empire, the offer from Germany for peace at the start of WWII was stay out of the war and you can keep your empire. Instead we decided to try and save Europe, and the price from the US to save us was bankruptcy and losing the empire.

The British Isles are part of the continent of Europe no matter how much we try and deny it.

We proved that having incestuous royal families intermarried across Europe could not prevent war, perhaps strong economic ties could.

I'd even suggest that over that 2,000 year period, over half of that had the rulers speaking a different language to the native peasants.

You're labouring entirely the wrong point.

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | ... | 13