NZ fees-free study

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#1913655 6-Dec-2017 07:12

dafman:

A question for those who oppose this scheme ...

With National Superannuation, taxpayers fund weekly payments to many very wealthy retired New Zealanders, who don't need it, do nothing in return for receiving it, yet we continue to pay them week on week on week. Is this not a greater waste of taxpayers money than providing support to New Zealanders to study?

No it's not. National Super *is* the superannuation policy of NZ. Until it's ended and replaced solely by Kiwisaver (or other mandatory super schemes) then you can't not give people money.

It seems very clear Labour are going to backtrack on National canning National super. After National finally had the guts to do something Labour will likely change it.

I have no issue with the concept of a free education but personally can't understand why the scheme doesn't simply offer the 2nd or last year for free. That will deal with all the drop outs who will go into higher education simply because it's free no intention of ever completing their degree.

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#1913656 6-Dec-2017 07:15

debo:

dafman:

A question for those who oppose this scheme ...

With National Superannuation, taxpayers fund weekly payments to many very wealthy retired New Zealanders, who don't need it, do nothing in return for receiving it, yet we continue to pay them week on week on week. Is this not a greater waste of taxpayers money than providing support to New Zealanders to study?

Not at all. Retired people have already paid in advance. Students have paid nothing.

The retired people that have already paid in advance also received free education in their youth.

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#1913671 6-Dec-2017 07:37

dafman:

debo:

dafman:

A question for those who oppose this scheme ...

With National Superannuation, taxpayers fund weekly payments to many very wealthy retired New Zealanders, who don't need it, do nothing in return for receiving it, yet we continue to pay them week on week on week. Is this not a greater waste of taxpayers money than providing support to New Zealanders to study?

Not at all. Retired people have already paid in advance. Students have paid nothing.

The retired people that have already paid in advance also received free education in their youth.

You can't assume everyone who is retired went onto free higher education after high school.

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#1913680 6-Dec-2017 08:01

One set of our friends have spent the last 15 years living and working overseas. They have contributed no tax to NZ in that time. They are returning to NZ and their daughter commences University next year for free. They are multi millionaires and will be due for national super soon. They say it is their birthright and weren't too impressed when I suggested they were rorting the system.

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#1913685 6-Dec-2017 08:20

sbiddle:

dafman:

A question for those who oppose this scheme ...

With National Superannuation, taxpayers fund weekly payments to many very wealthy retired New Zealanders, who don't need it, do nothing in return for receiving it, yet we continue to pay them week on week on week. Is this not a greater waste of taxpayers money than providing support to New Zealanders to study?

No it's not. National Super *is* the superannuation policy of NZ. Until it's ended and replaced solely by Kiwisaver (or other mandatory super schemes) then you can't not give people money.

It seems very clear Labour are going to backtrack on National canning National super. After National finally had the guts to do something Labour will likely change it.

I have no issue with the concept of a free education but personally can't understand why the scheme doesn't simply offer the 2nd or last year for free. That will deal with all the drop outs who will go into higher education simply because it's free no intention of ever completing their degree.

National didn't (and dont have a policy to) can the NZ Government super or the Super fund. One of their election promises was to resume contributions to the fund in 2019. Then there's the political fall out of losing a significant section of their voter support if they did try to get rid of it.

As for Kiwi Saver, as it's not compulsory, it cant replace the Super fund.

As for free education the Labour government will be increasing it to cover up to three years by 2022, when its budgeted for.

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#1913686 6-Dec-2017 08:27

Dingbatt: One set of our friends have spent the last 15 years living and working overseas. They have contributed no tax to NZ in that time. They are returning to NZ and their daughter commences University next year for free. They are multi millionaires and will be due for national super soon. They say it is their birthright and weren't too impressed when I suggested they were rorting the system.

Why should they contribute taxes to New Zealand when they're not living/working here?

As for them 'rorting the superannuation system' if they're entitled to NZ Government Superannuation, then they're not rorting the system if and when they get it. I'm not surprised they weren't impressed with your 'suggestion'.

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#1913687 6-Dec-2017 08:28

Dingbatt: One set of our friends have spent the last 15 years living and working overseas. They have contributed no tax to NZ in that time. They are returning to NZ and their daughter commences University next year for free. They are multi millionaires and will be due for national super soon. They say it is their birthright and weren't too impressed when I suggested they were rorting the system.

Interesting friends that you have.

Sadly, it does seem to be that the wealthier a person is, the more they feel the need and entitlement to increase that wealth.

MikeAqua

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#1913700 6-Dec-2017 09:04

I thought this scheme would be better if it was a loan credit provided when people graduate.

For students that don't take a loan, make it a cash grant on graduation so they can set themselves up for working life - car, suits, tools, whatever ...

Mike

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#1913724 6-Dec-2017 09:45

MaxLV:

sbiddle:

dafman:

A question for those who oppose this scheme ...

With National Superannuation, taxpayers fund weekly payments to many very wealthy retired New Zealanders, who don't need it, do nothing in return for receiving it, yet we continue to pay them week on week on week. Is this not a greater waste of taxpayers money than providing support to New Zealanders to study?

No it's not. National Super *is* the superannuation policy of NZ. Until it's ended and replaced solely by Kiwisaver (or other mandatory super schemes) then you can't not give people money.

It seems very clear Labour are going to backtrack on National canning National super. After National finally had the guts to do something Labour will likely change it.

I have no issue with the concept of a free education but personally can't understand why the scheme doesn't simply offer the 2nd or last year for free. That will deal with all the drop outs who will go into higher education simply because it's free no intention of ever completing their degree.

National didn't (and dont have a policy to) can the NZ Government super or the Super fund. One of their election promises was to resume contributions to the fund in 2019. Then there's the political fall out of losing a significant section of their voter support if they did try to get rid of it.

As for Kiwi Saver, as it's not compulsory, it cant replace the Super fund.

As for free education the Labour government will be increasing it to cover up to three years by 2022, when its budgeted for.

I should have reworded that slightly. National proposed raised the age to 67 from 65 as the first step towards ending the current policy and making superannuation mandatory. It would seem that Labout plan to reverse that back to 65.

The current superannuation policy will implode as the population ages. Nobody seems to disagree about that, but nobody wants to act on it because they seem such a fundamental change will see them booted from power because so many people will take issue with it.

MikeAqua

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#1913749 6-Dec-2017 10:12

sbiddle:

The current superannuation policy will implode as the population ages. Nobody seems to disagree about that, but nobody wants to act on it because they seem such a fundamental change will see them booted from power because so many people will take issue with it.

This is one piece of policy that we could really do with a cross-party accord on. It's too important/long-term-strategic to be a political football.

Of course party-A would never want to give party-B the kudos of that being achieved under their leadership so ...

Mike

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#1913752 6-Dec-2017 10:16

frankv:

Sam91:

For example, I think it's a good idea to incentivise apprenticeships in high demand fields by making the training free, but I don't agree with making all degrees free.

"I'll become a plumber because the training is free so I've got nothing to lose" seems to me to be a recipe for lots of people leaving the trade at the first opportunity, which would be very wasteful.

What we should be doing is identifying people who would be good at a trade, and want to do it, and helping them along.

We desperately need lots of trades graduates. We need lots more university graduates only in some subjects (medicine, health, information technology, engineering, education) but I don't believe we need more graduates in law, arts, political science, macrame weaving etc. This free study package doesn't target what we need but instead scatters buckets of cash everywhere.

Trades apprentices don't pay for their on-job training - they are paid (minimum wage). They might or might not pay fees for their part time polytech courses, but even these fees are tiny compared to university fees. So this free study package offers little or nothing to the trades compared to university courses.

So overall it's very disappointing. I believe most of the uptake will be from students in middle class or well off families. It's poorly targeted. As others have said, it should be structured to encourage achievement through to graduation. As it stands now, there is likely to be a good number of drop-out bound students hoovering up our priceless education resource, along with their $50/week student allowance/beer money. What a waste.

Is this free fees allowance for first year or all years? Is it for post graduate fees? My son will be at year 13 school next year, but because he's already done all level 3 mathematics this year he's been allowed to do a level 1 university mathematics paper next year*. If the fees for this are paid does that impact his eligibility for free tuition the following year when he's doing a full year of expensive engineering studies?

We're a comfortable middle class family. All three of our kids are academic and the oldest two are lining up to study engineering and veterinary science. Very expensive courses but with near guaranteed well paid employment at the end. This policy means they get that benefit for free. Great for us but probably poor for the country. What they should be doing with all those billions of extra spending is putting it into schools.

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#1913761 6-Dec-2017 10:29

kryptonjohn:

It's poorly targeted.

I'd argue there is no target at all. Everybody can apply, including foreigners.

MikeAqua

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#1913764 6-Dec-2017 10:36

The scheme is one years free tuition for people who never not previously done 6 months or more of tertiary study. So if your son does a half year paper at uni, he is no longer entitled. I would hold off on the study until he is at uni full-time if you want to maximise the use of the first years free tuition. Better to use that for a year of full time study.

Unless there is provision for people studying part time to spread the free tuition over multiple years - might pay to check that out.

Mike

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#1913775 6-Dec-2017 10:41

MikeAqua:

The scheme is one years free tuition for people who never not previously done 6 months or more of tertiary study. So if your son does a half year paper at uni, he is no longer entitled. I would hold off on the study until he is at uni full-time if you want to maximise the use of the first years free tuition. Better to use that for a year of full time study.

Unless there is provision for people studying part time to spread the free tuition over multiple years - might pay to check that out.

That was my worry: that for being good at math and doing an advanced paper while at school he will be punished to the tune of a year's fees. It will come down to the definition: ff it is "6 months of full time study" he will be ok.

This free study package is starting to look like an example of gross incompetence by the government.

Sam91

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#1913785 6-Dec-2017 10:57

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