GCSB Protest March

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#864439 23-Jul-2013 16:34

Mark:

You know that a lot of the major systems around the country (government and private) are run by by people who come here ?

Sure, and even the most awesome of us, the ones to whom the rest of the organisation come with every little question, who had a hand in building just about everything you rely on day to day without even realising... even those people f*** up from time to time.

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#864440 23-Jul-2013 16:34

Mark:
doozy:
TheUngeek: And there goes the incorrect common argument from the opposed.
Government law enforcement agencies are all that see the info. Not the public not ministers etc

You know what ... with the amount of 'data breaches' from govt agencies in the past year, I am not even remotely comfortable with this. Too much data already accidentally ends up in the hands of the public now. I also would seriously question the skills of those involved in maintaining any sort of database where this information is stored, one screwed up data entry/table and bam, your name ends up with the details of, who knows ... someone else posting in this thread.

Best you go find a nice comfy cave then, because this is the real world and bad things happen in it ... some things you just have to trust people a little, 99.9% of the time everything works.

You know that a lot of the major systems around the country (government and private) are run by by people who come here ?

Hands up who can crash the NZ economy while sitting on the loo with their laptop! ;-)

You have just provided a strong argument for the opposition to the bill.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#864452 23-Jul-2013 16:40

Actually Networkin I did you just failed to acknowledge it.

Lets be more specific.

I am GCSB employee. I have access to your data. I take all your bank info ring the bank give them your password, your account number and all identifiers. I then tell them that I've had someone I know hack my info and try to impersonate me over the phone through phone banking or even that I simply believe someone has. I set up new password, new security questions and a new address.

I have access to your birth cert and everything else so I can go into the bank personally with my I.D and present myself as you and again relay the same story. If I do this correctly I could successfully lock you out of your account in less than a day. (Not a day to get things like your birth cert and new I.D's but one day to successfully lock you out).

Now tell me how do you feel now and how will you disprove that I am not you. Sure you can go into a local branch and present yourself in hope they recognise you but hey so can I.

This is pretty ridiculous and would likely never happen but the simple fact remains. Someone with all that information can and could if they so desired.

Is this just the sort of proof you want on how you could be potentially disadvantaged.

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#864458 23-Jul-2013 16:50

KiwiNZ:

You have just provided a strong argument for the opposition to the bill.

Nah .. just saying that doesn't actually make it true you know .. maybe my point wasn't simple enough for you to see ?

IT systems are run by people, normal people, not people who have been granted infallible powers by a cloud fairy ... data breaches will ALWAYS happen! So why worry about it happening if you know it is going to happen ?

I want the government of my country to be able to watch the population and locate the numpties who would otherwise ruin my day! I've lived a large chunk of my life where I've had to look under cars for bombs or be suspicious of packages, if the government gives themselves more legal rights to search out the people who would attempt to harm the country and it's people then i'm all for it (they look just like you and me, they don't actually have a sign on around their necks saying "I am a terrorist")

Have I anything to hide ? Of course I do .. I've done shed loads of dubious things, I've been arrested, in jail etc etc etc ... do I care that the government is watching me ? No ... because I'd rather like them to stop people like me from being stoopid!

How can people possibly argue that their privacy out weighs the safety of the whole country and everyone in it ?

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#864471 23-Jul-2013 16:55

Just received:

InternetNZ (Internet New Zealand Inc) has considered the outcomes of discussions between Hon Peter Dunne and the Government in respect of the GCSB legislation currently being considered by the Intelligence and Security Committee.

InternetNZ supports the changes as far as they go, but believes they do not go far enough to assuage the concerns identified in a wide range of submissions on the Bill.

The Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill (GCSB Bill) would expand the powers of the government in intercepting the private communications of Internet users in order to protect New Zealand’s national security, international relations, and economic well-being.

In its positions on the GCSB Bill and the Telecommunications Interception Capability and Security Bill (TICS Bill), InternetNZ raised questions on the possible impact of the legislation on Internet-based business in New Zealand, the innovation environment for networks, and privacy online. It joined the Legislation Advisory Committee, the Human Rights Commission, the Office of the Privacy Commissioner and the Law Society in calling for stronger legal oversight for interception warrants.

Oversight
“The reported changes bring us closer right balance between Internet users’ privacy and security, but there is still a way to go” says Jordan Carter, Chief Executive.

“A small step was made in this direction by agreeing that the Inspector-General be notified when a warrant is issued, but that does not amount to meaningful independent oversight.

“InternetNZ recommended in its submission that interception warrants be signed off by active judges, which would satisfy concerns about oversight. The former Director of the GCSB himself agreed that judicial oversight is a good idea. The Bill should still be amended to provide for this.”

Review
InternetNZ supports the idea of an independent review of New Zealand’s intelligence agencies, scheduled for 2015 under the agreement between Hon Peter Dunne and the Government.

“It would be good to see the nature of this review spelled out in some detail (perhaps by agreement of a Terms of Reference) before the legislation is passed,” Jordan Carter says.

“We note that such a review would ideally happen before, not after the legislation that provoked it is in place – but the proposed review will, in the end, kick off the wider public debate that is needed. In 2015 it will be well past time for the whole structure of the intelligence community to be on the table.”

Metadata
In its submission to the Intelligence and Security Committee, InternetNZ called for a wider discussion of what “private communications” means, and for clarity on how metadata will be treated under the act.

On this note, InternetNZ welcomes the review of “private communications”, and encourages a robust examination of metadata as part of that review.

More Debate
“If one thing was clear at our panel at NetHui, was that we need more debate on this entire issue, if anything to ensure that the New Zealand public is sufficiently aware of the changing communications environment.

“People need to know under what general terms their private communications will or will not be intercepted.

Waiting for the SOP
While the changes have been reported in the media, a formal report from the Intelligence and Security Committee has yet to be issued. The legislative amendments, to be introduced by means of a Supplementary Order Paper, have yet to be made public.
InternetNZ awaits the report and the SOP, and will scrutinise the amendments as swiftly as possible once they are available.

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#864473 23-Jul-2013 16:58

Mark:
KiwiNZ:

You have just provided a strong argument for the opposition to the bill.

Nah .. just saying that doesn't actually make it true you know .. maybe my point wasn't simple enough for you to see ?

IT systems are run by people, normal people, not people who have been granted infallible powers by a cloud fairy ... data breaches will ALWAYS happen! So why worry about it happening if you know it is going to happen ?

I want the government of my country to be able to watch the population and locate the numpties who would otherwise ruin my day! I've lived a large chunk of my life where I've had to look under cars for bombs or be suspicious of packages, if the government gives themselves more legal rights to search out the people who would attempt to harm the country and it's people then i'm all for it (they look just like you and me, they don't actually have a sign on around their necks saying "I am a terrorist")

Yeah because this has worked out so well in the US. Laws passed under the guise of anti-terrorism have breached every provision of their constitution that safeguards personal liberty, freedom and privacy. Except the 2nd amendment of course, touch that and die.

I'd prefer for that not to happen here. Even though I'm a law abiding citizen and have nothing to worry about, I'd still like to have my privacy.

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#864475 23-Jul-2013 16:59

Mark:
KiwiNZ:

You have just provided a strong argument for the opposition to the bill.

Nah .. just saying that doesn't actually make it true you know .. maybe my point wasn't simple enough for you to see ?

IT systems are run by people, normal people, not people who have been granted infallible powers by a cloud fairy ... data breaches will ALWAYS happen! So why worry about it happening if you know it is going to happen ?

I want the government of my country to be able to watch the population and locate the numpties who would otherwise ruin my day! I've lived a large chunk of my life where I've had to look under cars for bombs or be suspicious of packages, if the government gives themselves more legal rights to search out the people who would attempt to harm the country and it's people then i'm all for it (they look just like you and me, they don't actually have a sign on around their necks saying "I am a terrorist")

Have I anything to hide ? Of course I do .. I've done shed loads of dubious things, I've been arrested, in jail etc etc etc ... do I care that the government is watching me ? No ... because I'd rather like them to stop people like me from being stoopid!

How can people possibly argue that their privacy out weighs the safety of the whole country and everyone in it ?

A mature argument does not need to contain insults like most of yours do.

By say that the systems used by the GCSB will be run by people that will make mistakes and will render any information jeopardised you are reinforcing the opposition view.

If the government wants and needs the information then they need to do a better job than history demonstrates.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

SaltyNZ

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#864476 23-Jul-2013 16:59

Mark:

How can people possibly argue that their privacy out weighs the safety of the whole country and everyone in it ?

Well, because, for one thing, giving away my privacy doesn't make anybody safer. It didn't stop the Boston bombers, did it? Having an unremitting torrent of data doesn't make it easier to find and stop the bad guys. It's not so much a matter of finding a needle in a haystack; it's more like finding a particular needle in a haystack full of needles.

If you are the kind of geek who runs important things then you already know this, although you may not have put it into context. If I have a problem with one of the systems I am responsible for at work, and the vendor comes back to me and says 'the only way we can diagnose this issue is to put the system into full debug' then I know we have failed. Full debug on a running system isn't just useless, it's actively hostile. It's full of irrelevancies and it degrades performance even for those users who were not previously experiencing problems. Allowing the government unfettered access to your private life not only gives the bad guys a sweet target, but it distracts the good guys from doing things that might actually be useful.

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#864493 23-Jul-2013 17:26

KiwiNZ:

A mature argument does not need to contain insults like most of yours do.

By say that the systems used by the GCSB will be run by people that will make mistakes and will render any information jeopardised you are reinforcing the opposition view.

If the government wants and needs the information then they need to do a better job than history demonstrates.

OK I'm lost .. where did I insult you ?

Any system out there whether it be paper based or computerised can have mistakes made in it ... how can that reinforce the opposition view ?

But yes .. doing better is always good, being perfect from day one is not going to happen though.

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#864494 23-Jul-2013 17:28

Read this article on Washington Post about the growing surveillance state:

The story of the NSA’s post-Sept. 11 history could begin in many places, including the parking lot of the CIA. There, in late 2001, a burly Navy SEAL paced inside a trailer with a telephone to his ear. The trailer had been hastily converted from a day-care facility to an operations center for the CIA’s covert armed drone program, which was about to kill one of its first al-Qaeda targets, 8,000 miles away in Afghanistan.

On the line with the SEAL was the drone operator and a “collector,” an NSA employee at the agency’s gigantic base at Fort Gordon in Augusta, Ga. The collector was controlling electronic surveillance equipment in the airspace over the part of Afghanistan where the CIA had zeroed in on one particular person. The SEAL pleaded with the collector to locate the cellphone in Afghanistan that matched the phone number that the SEAL had just given him, according to someone with knowledge of the incident who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

The collector had never before done such a thing. Before even intercepting a cellphone conversation, he was accustomed to first confirming that the user was the person he had been directed to spy on. The conversation would then be translated, analyzed, distilled and, weeks later, if deemed to be interesting, sent around the U.S. intelligence community and the White House.

On that day, though, the minutes mattered.

“We just want you to find the phone!” the SEAL urged. No one cared about the conversation it might be transmitting.

The CIA wanted the phone as a targeting beacon to kill its owner.

Let this sink in. The SEAL wanted to find the phone, not the person. They did not have confirmation the person carrying that phone was actually the person they were targeting.

Just by knowing one phone number they would be able to fire a missile down on the bad guy. surely, without eye on the action they can't be sure they are actually targeting a wedding? But who cares about collateral damage, it's the bad guys, right? Wrong.

It's the reason why your speeding ticket from a digital camera doesn't add demerit points to your license: there's no way to prove you were actually driving the car registered to you. Anything tying that car to you is irrelevant if they don't have evidence of you driving that car. the only they know is the car is registered to you. The only they know is the mobile phone has your name in the account.

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#864496 23-Jul-2013 17:29

Probably the word "simple" instead of "clear" or something along the lines of "let me provide a little clarity in what I actually meant" would have been more user friendly.

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#864497 23-Jul-2013 17:33

SaltyNZ:
Mark:

How can people possibly argue that their privacy out weighs the safety of the whole country and everyone in it ?

Well, because, for one thing, giving away my privacy doesn't make anybody safer. It didn't stop the Boston bombers, did it? Having an unremitting torrent of data doesn't make it easier to find and stop the bad guys. It's not so much a matter of finding a needle in a haystack; it's more like finding a particular needle in a haystack full of needles.

So they didn't get those guys ... how many other guys have they got that didn't make it into public knowledge ? You'd rather they ALL got away with it ? Sorry .. I would rather they spend a beeellllion dollars putting in a thousand cameras and only catch the 1 terrorist planting a bomb than have that 1 guy kill innocent people because the law got canned over people feeling insulted their privacy was being imposed upon.

Face it people .. 99.99% of us do not do aything that would make a GSCB even remotely interested in us ... but I'd like them to have the tools to hand if they do get a whiff of something stinky.

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#864502 23-Jul-2013 17:40

Let's hope if this comes to pass we don't have a Lavrentiy Beria in our political and administrative ranks, more interested in protecting the state than the citizens.

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#864504 23-Jul-2013 17:44

Mark:
SaltyNZ:
Mark:

How can people possibly argue that their privacy out weighs the safety of the whole country and everyone in it ?

Well, because, for one thing, giving away my privacy doesn't make anybody safer. It didn't stop the Boston bombers, did it? Having an unremitting torrent of data doesn't make it easier to find and stop the bad guys. It's not so much a matter of finding a needle in a haystack; it's more like finding a particular needle in a haystack full of needles.

So they didn't get those guys ... how many other guys have they got that didn't make it into public knowledge ? You'd rather they ALL got away with it ? Sorry .. I would rather they spend a beeellllion dollars putting in a thousand cameras and only catch the 1 terrorist planting a bomb than have that 1 guy kill innocent people because the law got canned over people feeling insulted their privacy was being imposed upon.

Face it people .. 99.99% of us do not do aything that would make a GSCB even remotely interested in us ... but I'd like them to have the tools to hand if they do get a whiff of something stinky.

I think you'll find it's not the GCSB having the tools that is of concern to people. It is that there is the potential for misuse and a lack of real oversight and control.

The right to privacy is a fundamental part of our liberty and freedom. If you're so willing to give that up in the name of security would you also give up your rights to speech, assembly, religion to name a few for the same?

freitasm

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#864513 23-Jul-2013 17:55

Let's try another scenario: Prime Minister doesn't like the opposition leader is gaining support. Because he can initiate surveillance without any reason, just citing "national security" he finds out the opposition leader has a thing with people of the same sex.

In anyone's life this is something that couldn't/shouldn't cause problems. What you do in your private life is yours only.

But the Prime Minister wants to appeal to a conservative base, so this information is leaked somehow (tea tapes? GCSB report leak?) and now there's something going on there.

Yes, people have nothing to fear.

Talking about Tea Tapes:

The politicians involved considered that their private conversation had been illegally recorded. John Key and the National Party said that it appeared that the Herald had deliberately recorded the conversation, and described it as "News of the World style tactics", however journalists argued that that the recording was in the public interest and should therefore be released

Privacy for one but not for others? If you are talking in a public place can you expect privacy of any kind? What about covert surveillance?

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