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#1493920 17-Feb-2016 12:22

Geektastic:

tdgeek:

Geektastic:

Linuxluver:

timmmay:

I wouldn't call that corruption, I'd call it tax avoidance or evasion. Quite different. Corruption is someone in power asking for a bribe, he just gave you an option.

It's a conspiracy to break the law.

That's corruption. But it is interesting people do try to draw some sort of distinction between the two. But it really boils down to "My corruption is OK, but theirs isn't". It's all illegal....and we all end up paying for it in higher taxes or a lower level of services.

Well, when you say "we all" you presumably mean "the minority of taxpayers in NZ who are net payers rather than net recipients" because that number is actually fairly small as a percentage.

LL means taxpayers, thats everyone that earns an income. Whoever pays tax pays NZ's bills. If less tax is collected, tax rates must rise or the services must reduce

However if you are receiving more back than you put in you are not really a taxpayer, are you? See this exchange from Parliament:

Michael Woodhouse: Which groups now pay most of the tax collected by the Government?

Hon BILL ENGLISH: Our tax and transfer system is highly redistributive, and the number of people paying income tax is surprisingly small. The lowest-income 43 percent of households currently receive more in income support than they pay in income tax. The 1.3 million households with incomes under $110,000 a year collectively pay no net tax—that is, their total income support payments match their combined income tax. The top 10 percent of households contribute over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers—over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers. This system is highly redistributive and we believe it is fair.

And people say the top tax brackets should be raised...

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#1493981 17-Feb-2016 13:34

Geektastic:

However if you are receiving more back than you put in you are not really a taxpayer, are you?

Where does that leave every public servant?

See this exchange from Parliament:

Michael Woodhouse: Which groups now pay most of the tax collected by the Government?

Hon BILL ENGLISH: Our tax and transfer system is highly redistributive, and the number of people paying income tax is surprisingly small. The lowest-income 43 percent of households currently receive more in income support than they pay in income tax. The 1.3 million households with incomes under $110,000 a year collectively pay no net tax—that is, their total income support payments match their combined income tax. The top 10 percent of households contribute over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers—over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers. This system is highly redistributive and we believe it is fair.

This is statistics being used to obfuscate and mislead. It's notable that Bill English did NOT answer the question that was put "Which groups pay most of the tax collected..." and instead answers a completely different question: "Which groups of households pay more tax than they get in benefits..."

Clearly the $110,000 figure used by Bill English was specifically chosen to lump all the superannuitants and beneficiaries and students together with the middle classes, to make it appear that the middle classes don't pay any income tax. I'd also guess that household, as opposed to personal, income is used for the same reason... it's not uncommon for poor families to share a house; Bill English effectively combines their several low personal or family incomes into one larger "household" income.

Stats NZ says we had 1,549,890 households in NZ in 2013. I assume there's no later figures, and it hasn't changed much since then. With a population of 4.4M, there's an average of 2.8 people per household. That makes 1.3M about 84%. I wonder what happens with the other 6%, who aren't included in either the "non-taxpaying" majority nor the top 10% "contributors"?

Why does the Govt bother to collect income tax from 84% of households if they just turn around and give it back again? Well, the reality is that they don't -- they take it away from the middle classes and give it to the beneficiaries. Certainly *my* household income is under $110,000, and I definitely pay income tax, and get no income support (apart from being a public servant).

From Stats NZ:

23% of households are 1-person.

Of one-person households, at some point in the previous 12 months:
- 43.0 percent received some income from wages and salaries
- 42.1 percent received some income from NZ superannuation or veterans pension.

The proportion of households receiving an annual income of $70,001 or more was:

56.1 percent for one-family households
78.2 percent for two or more family households
45.8 percent for other multi-person households
11.9 percent for one-person households.

The median household income from all sources was $63,800 in 2013

In two or more family households, while 89.4 percent of households received income from wages and salaries, 59.7 percent also received some income from government transfers. This includes 24.2 percent receiving income from the domestic purposes benefit at some point in the previous 12 months.

tdgeek

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#1493991 17-Feb-2016 13:46

Agree

We all pay tax. Some recieve support. Seperate issue. Support is not negative tax, its a transfer, a payment. Its one bill the Govt pays, along with many other, with income taxation being a source of funds that allows those payments to be made, along with other forms of taxation.

On a side note, I recall Bob Jones stating in his book, that we all on average, pay tax from 9am Monday morning to lunchtime Thursday. This is the income tax and other forms of tax we pay out of our pay packets , basically about 70% of gross earnings.

SheriffNZ

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#1494018 17-Feb-2016 13:57

tdgeek:

Agree

We all pay tax. Some recieve support. Seperate issue. Support is not negative tax, its a transfer, a payment. Its one bill the Govt pays, along with many other, with income taxation being a source of funds that allows those payments to be made, along with other forms of taxation.

On a side note, I recall Bob Jones stating in his book, that we all on average, pay tax from 9am Monday morning to lunchtime Thursday. This is the income tax and other forms of tax we pay out of our pay packets , basically about 70% of gross earnings.

I think you're referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day and it's the other way round - ie you work from Monday to Thursday for yourself and the balance of the week is for the government.

tdgeek

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#1494042 17-Feb-2016 14:20

SheriffNZ:

tdgeek:

Agree

We all pay tax. Some recieve support. Seperate issue. Support is not negative tax, its a transfer, a payment. Its one bill the Govt pays, along with many other, with income taxation being a source of funds that allows those payments to be made, along with other forms of taxation.

On a side note, I recall Bob Jones stating in his book, that we all on average, pay tax from 9am Monday morning to lunchtime Thursday. This is the income tax and other forms of tax we pay out of our pay packets , basically about 70% of gross earnings.

I think you're referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day and it's the other way round - ie you work from Monday to Thursday for yourself and the balance of the week is for the government.

No, he defintely said that we pay taxes until Thursday lunchtime, which will be income taxes, sales taxes, all the taxes that we pay when we spend money. I'd like to know what that is now actually. Say the average tax rate is say 28%, add GST at 15%, thats almost to an early morning tea Wednesday there. Fuel tax, booze tax, cigarette tax. Even the broadband levy at 25c a week is a few minutes!

SheriffNZ

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#1494048 17-Feb-2016 14:30

tdgeek:

SheriffNZ:

tdgeek:

Agree

We all pay tax. Some recieve support. Seperate issue. Support is not negative tax, its a transfer, a payment. Its one bill the Govt pays, along with many other, with income taxation being a source of funds that allows those payments to be made, along with other forms of taxation.

On a side note, I recall Bob Jones stating in his book, that we all on average, pay tax from 9am Monday morning to lunchtime Thursday. This is the income tax and other forms of tax we pay out of our pay packets , basically about 70% of gross earnings.

I think you're referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day and it's the other way round - ie you work from Monday to Thursday for yourself and the balance of the week is for the government.

No, he defintely said that we pay taxes until Thursday lunchtime, which will be income taxes, sales taxes, all the taxes that we pay when we spend money. I'd like to know what that is now actually. Say the average tax rate is say 28%, add GST at 15%, thats almost to an early morning tea Wednesday there. Fuel tax, booze tax, cigarette tax. Even the broadband levy at 25c a week is a few minutes!

Ok, I'll take your word for it. It just seems high to me. I ran the same sort of calculation you did in your post. I'd love to see how he got that number!

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SheriffNZ

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#1494049 17-Feb-2016 14:31

SheriffNZ:

tdgeek:

SheriffNZ:

tdgeek:

Agree

We all pay tax. Some recieve support. Seperate issue. Support is not negative tax, its a transfer, a payment. Its one bill the Govt pays, along with many other, with income taxation being a source of funds that allows those payments to be made, along with other forms of taxation.

On a side note, I recall Bob Jones stating in his book, that we all on average, pay tax from 9am Monday morning to lunchtime Thursday. This is the income tax and other forms of tax we pay out of our pay packets , basically about 70% of gross earnings.

I think you're referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day and it's the other way round - ie you work from Monday to Thursday for yourself and the balance of the week is for the government.

No, he defintely said that we pay taxes until Thursday lunchtime, which will be income taxes, sales taxes, all the taxes that we pay when we spend money. I'd like to know what that is now actually. Say the average tax rate is say 28%, add GST at 15%, thats almost to an early morning tea Wednesday there. Fuel tax, booze tax, cigarette tax. Even the broadband levy at 25c a week is a few minutes!

Ok, I'll take your word for it. It just seems high to me. I ran the same sort of calculation you did in your post. I'd love to see how he got that number!

Maybe he's working off a 7 day week (rather than a working week)?

tdgeek

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#1494063 17-Feb-2016 14:57

It was decades ago. He meant a working week. Income Tax might be 25% of the week. GST on the net pay, if they spent it all is about 10% of the week. Fuel is mainly tax, booze and ciggies are mainly tax. I dunno what other taxes are intermingled in daily items

Geektastic

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#1494066 17-Feb-2016 14:58

tdgeek:

Agree

We all pay tax. Some recieve support. Seperate issue. Support is not negative tax, its a transfer, a payment. Its one bill the Govt pays, along with many other, with income taxation being a source of funds that allows those payments to be made, along with other forms of taxation.

On a side note, I recall Bob Jones stating in his book, that we all on average, pay tax from 9am Monday morning to lunchtime Thursday. This is the income tax and other forms of tax we pay out of our pay packets , basically about 70% of gross earnings.

If I pay $50,000 in tax and the government gives me $60,000 in "transfers", it is clear that whilst I may have paid a bill marked 'Income Tax' I have not in fact actually paid any tax.

Linuxluver

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#1494161 17-Feb-2016 17:05

Geektastic:

However if you are receiving more back than you put in you are not really a taxpayer, are you? See this exchange from Parliament:

Michael Woodhouse: Which groups now pay most of the tax collected by the Government?

Hon BILL ENGLISH: Our tax and transfer system is highly redistributive, and the number of people paying income tax is surprisingly small. The lowest-income 43 percent of households currently receive more in income support than they pay in income tax. The 1.3 million households with incomes under $110,000 a year collectively pay no net tax—that is, their total income support payments match their combined income tax. The top 10 percent of households contribute over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers—over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers. This system is highly redistributive and we believe it is fair.

This is irrelevant. If you pay $1 in tax you're a taxpayer.

The problem reported in this topic is that some people illegally conceal income to avoid paying tax on it.

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Geektastic

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#1494191 17-Feb-2016 18:06

Linuxluver:

Geektastic:

However if you are receiving more back than you put in you are not really a taxpayer, are you? See this exchange from Parliament:

Michael Woodhouse: Which groups now pay most of the tax collected by the Government?

Hon BILL ENGLISH: Our tax and transfer system is highly redistributive, and the number of people paying income tax is surprisingly small. The lowest-income 43 percent of households currently receive more in income support than they pay in income tax. The 1.3 million households with incomes under $110,000 a year collectively pay no net tax—that is, their total income support payments match their combined income tax. The top 10 percent of households contribute over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers—over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers. This system is highly redistributive and we believe it is fair.

This is irrelevant. If you pay $1 in tax you're a taxpayer.

The problem reported in this topic is that some people illegally conceal income to avoid paying tax on it.

It is not irrelevant in my view. It was raised in response to

"That's corruption. But it is interesting people do try to draw some sort of distinction between the two. But it really boils down to "My corruption is OK, but theirs isn't". It's all illegal....and we all end up paying for it in higher taxes or a lower level of services. "

If you get back more than you put in, you are not paying more taxes. You're paying no taxes. The fact that you pay a bill that says "tax" does not make you much of a taxpayer if the government then in effect refunds it.

Arguably it is pointless collecting it if you intend to return it as all it does is add cost, but that is a whole other kettle of fish.

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Geektastic

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#1494193 17-Feb-2016 18:07

tdgeek:

It was decades ago. He meant a working week. Income Tax might be 25% of the week. GST on the net pay, if they spent it all is about 10% of the week. Fuel is mainly tax, booze and ciggies are mainly tax. I dunno what other taxes are intermingled in daily items

Clothes and shoes from overseas (i.e. most of them) have a 10% Customs Duty added before GST on arrival.

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#1494196 17-Feb-2016 18:12

Geektastic:

Linuxluver:

Geektastic:

However if you are receiving more back than you put in you are not really a taxpayer, are you? See this exchange from Parliament:

Michael Woodhouse: Which groups now pay most of the tax collected by the Government?

Hon BILL ENGLISH: Our tax and transfer system is highly redistributive, and the number of people paying income tax is surprisingly small. The lowest-income 43 percent of households currently receive more in income support than they pay in income tax. The 1.3 million households with incomes under $110,000 a year collectively pay no net tax—that is, their total income support payments match their combined income tax. The top 10 percent of households contribute over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers—over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers. This system is highly redistributive and we believe it is fair.

This is irrelevant. If you pay $1 in tax you're a taxpayer.

The problem reported in this topic is that some people illegally conceal income to avoid paying tax on it.

It is not irrelevant in my view. It was raised in response to

"That's corruption. But it is interesting people do try to draw some sort of distinction between the two. But it really boils down to "My corruption is OK, but theirs isn't". It's all illegal....and we all end up paying for it in higher taxes or a lower level of services. "

If you get back more than you put in, you are not paying more taxes. You're paying no taxes. The fact that you pay a bill that says "tax" does not make you much of a taxpayer if the government then in effect refunds it.

Arguably it is pointless collecting it if you intend to return it as all it does is add cost, but that is a whole other kettle of fish.

The Family support credit, whatever its called is a family support credit, its not a tax refund, or deduction. The Kiwisaver credits aren't tax refunds either, same thing.

Geektastic

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#1494216 17-Feb-2016 18:13

tdgeek:

Geektastic:

Linuxluver:

Geektastic:

However if you are receiving more back than you put in you are not really a taxpayer, are you? See this exchange from Parliament:

Michael Woodhouse: Which groups now pay most of the tax collected by the Government?

Hon BILL ENGLISH: Our tax and transfer system is highly redistributive, and the number of people paying income tax is surprisingly small. The lowest-income 43 percent of households currently receive more in income support than they pay in income tax. The 1.3 million households with incomes under $110,000 a year collectively pay no net tax—that is, their total income support payments match their combined income tax. The top 10 percent of households contribute over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers—over 70 percent of income tax, net of transfers. This system is highly redistributive and we believe it is fair.

This is irrelevant. If you pay $1 in tax you're a taxpayer.

The problem reported in this topic is that some people illegally conceal income to avoid paying tax on it.

It is not irrelevant in my view. It was raised in response to

"That's corruption. But it is interesting people do try to draw some sort of distinction between the two. But it really boils down to "My corruption is OK, but theirs isn't". It's all illegal....and we all end up paying for it in higher taxes or a lower level of services. "

If you get back more than you put in, you are not paying more taxes. You're paying no taxes. The fact that you pay a bill that says "tax" does not make you much of a taxpayer if the government then in effect refunds it.

Arguably it is pointless collecting it if you intend to return it as all it does is add cost, but that is a whole other kettle of fish.

The Family support credit, whatever its called is a family support credit, its not a tax refund, or deduction. The Kiwisaver credits aren't tax refunds either, same thing.

A rose by any other name etc etc.

Linuxluver

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#1494247 17-Feb-2016 19:36

Geektastic:

tdgeek:

Agree

We all pay tax. Some recieve support. Seperate issue. Support is not negative tax, its a transfer, a payment. Its one bill the Govt pays, along with many other, with income taxation being a source of funds that allows those payments to be made, along with other forms of taxation.

On a side note, I recall Bob Jones stating in his book, that we all on average, pay tax from 9am Monday morning to lunchtime Thursday. This is the income tax and other forms of tax we pay out of our pay packets , basically about 70% of gross earnings.

If I pay $50,000 in tax and the government gives me $60,000 in "transfers", it is clear that whilst I may have paid a bill marked 'Income Tax' I have not in fact actually paid any tax.

That is simply wrong. You paid $50,000 in tax. You said so yourself.

Sure, you may receive some kind of subsidy or other support or benefit for whatever reason - but that is aside and separate from the simple fact you earned income that was liable for tax...and you paid it.

This topic was about people who don't do that. They cheat.

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