BlueBourne - CGA Claim advice

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731 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#1882646 12-Oct-2017 20:47

sbiddle:

The implications for literally the entire manufacturing sector along with any importer of goods are so significant that you can guarantee a loss in the disputes tribunal would result in an immediate appeal.

The consequences of a loss in a case like this would be massive. Imagine how much you'd need to pay for a phone if manufacturers had to keep giving you a free one every 2 years when the current model was no longer supported. What happens when YouTube no longer works on your 5 year old TV because Google change their API? Will every TV manufacturer need to give away a free TV every 5 years?

Considering the value of the case and that the disputes tribunal does not involve lawyers I suspect appeal would not be a big issue.

I don't agree. To take your example, they wouldn't be giving you a "free one" every 2 years, they would be supporting the original one for 3 years (which they should do already!).

And yes, if Youtube stopped working on their TV that was advertised to have Youtube then it should be replaced within a reasonable lifetime. If however it was not advertised with youtube and this was just a app downloaded after the fact then no, it should not be refunded/replaced. This will just force them to ensure updates and make arrangements to do so rather than focus just on the immediate sale.

It's quite simple, if it can't do it for a reasonable lifetime, don't sell it.

Jase2985

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#1882654 12-Oct-2017 21:08

or the company will just stop selling their products in NZ

ArcticSilver

731 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 148

#1882655 12-Oct-2017 21:10

Jase2985:

or the company will just stop selling their products in NZ

Some how I don't think an extra year of support will make the product uneconomical.

Jase2985

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#1882659 12-Oct-2017 21:15

ArcticSilver:

Jase2985:

or the company will just stop selling their products in NZ

Some how I don't think an extra year of support will make the product uneconomical.

over an entire range of products, it might given the volume sold in NZ.

And given they may only have to do it for NZ because if it they needed to support it for longer else were then we would likely already see it being done, it could very well be uneconomical. and just easier to pull products.

ArcticSilver

731 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 148

#1882662 12-Oct-2017 21:18

Jase2985:

over an entire range of products, it might given the volume sold in NZ.

And given they may only have to do it for NZ because if it they needed to support it for longer else were then we would likely already see it being done, it could very well be uneconomical. and just easier to pull products.

This might happen with some players, but most I believe would stick it out. That being said, lets say they don't. Is that a bad thing?

Do we want $1000 phones that might stop being usable within the first 3 years? I sure don't.

Jase2985

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#1882664 12-Oct-2017 21:19

im sure the number of people still using 2+ year old hardware is in the minority

do you really want to see the likes of sony, LG, samsung disapear of something small like this? something that you likely have more chance of getting hit by lightening twice than having it happen to you?

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ArcticSilver

731 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#1882665 12-Oct-2017 21:22

Jase2985:

im sure the number of people still using 2+ year old hardware is in the minority

Maybe here, on Geekzone, but I certainly wouldn't make that assumption.

vyfster

67 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 9

#1882666 12-Oct-2017 21:25

Jase2985:

ArcticSilver:

Jase2985:

or the company will just stop selling their products in NZ

Some how I don't think an extra year of support will make the product uneconomical.

over an entire range of products, it might given the volume sold in NZ.

And given they may only have to do it for NZ because if it they needed to support it for longer else were then we would likely already see it being done, it could very well be uneconomical. and just easier to pull products.

Don't you think that they build in a bit of fat in their price as an insurance against this type of thing? Could be one of the reasons why we pay so much more for products (other than economies of scale). The CGA already exists and companies are still selling in NZ. So are you suggesting that the CGA should only apply some times, but not always in case we scare off manufacturers? So if there is a flaw in a product then we should rather turn a blind eye?

Jase2985

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#1882668 12-Oct-2017 21:35

im not saying that at all, i love the CGA. no where did i say it should apply sometimes and not others.

Benjip

977 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#1882670 12-Oct-2017 21:41

ArcticSilver:

Considering the value of the case and that the disputes tribunal does not involve lawyers I suspect appeal would not be a big issue.

I don't agree. To take your example, they wouldn't be giving you a "free one" every 2 years, they would be supporting the original one for 3 years (which they should do already!).

And yes, if Youtube stopped working on their TV that was advertised to have Youtube then it should be replaced within a reasonable lifetime. If however it was not advertised with youtube and this was just a app downloaded after the fact then no, it should not be refunded/replaced. This will just force them to ensure updates and make arrangements to do so rather than focus just on the immediate sale.

It's quite simple, if it can't do it for a reasonable lifetime, don't sell it.

What you're suggesting would have major a negative effect on the features that are shipped with any product. Manufacturers would simply stop innovating if they had to support everything for an indefinite period of time.

Also, you'll probably find that in the T&C of any product you purchase (whether it be a TV, smartphone or other), there will be a clause about third party services not being guaranteed to work forever, if at all. By using the product (switching on the TV) you're agreeing to those terms.

vyfster

67 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 9

#1882672 12-Oct-2017 21:46

Benjip:

ArcticSilver:

Considering the value of the case and that the disputes tribunal does not involve lawyers I suspect appeal would not be a big issue.

I don't agree. To take your example, they wouldn't be giving you a "free one" every 2 years, they would be supporting the original one for 3 years (which they should do already!).

And yes, if Youtube stopped working on their TV that was advertised to have Youtube then it should be replaced within a reasonable lifetime. If however it was not advertised with youtube and this was just a app downloaded after the fact then no, it should not be refunded/replaced. This will just force them to ensure updates and make arrangements to do so rather than focus just on the immediate sale.

It's quite simple, if it can't do it for a reasonable lifetime, don't sell it.

What you're suggesting would have major a negative effect on the features that are shipped with any product. Manufacturers would simply stop innovating if they had to support everything for an indefinite period of time.

Also, you'll probably find that in the T&C of any product you purchase (whether it be a TV, smartphone or other), there will be a clause about third party services not being guaranteed to work forever, if at all. By using the product (switching on the TV) you're agreeing to those terms.

Which is why using a third party service as an example doesn't work. Bluetooth is not a third party service for a device.

But lets keep with the YouTube example. Let's say that the TV was a YouTube TV that only streamed YouTube. And the API's changed after 3 years which meant that the TV could no longer stream YouTube videos. What would need to happen then?

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vyfster

67 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 9

#1882674 12-Oct-2017 21:56

Jase2985:

im not saying that at all, i love the CGA. no where did i say it should apply sometimes and not others.

I apologise, no you didn't. When I read your response I somehow made that connection / assumption on my own.

mattwnz

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#1882675 12-Oct-2017 21:58

sbiddle:

Like the Tivo issue the reality is consumer electronics goods have a life.

Although that life shouldn't be dictated by a company deciding to shut it down, resulting in it not getting the software updates it needs. There is nothing wrong with the hardware. TV type hardware should last a good 10 years , and the fact is that with the Tivo at least, it is current technology, it is not as though Freeview is any more advanced now than it was. This is evidenced by the lack of any DVRs that are as good as the tivo. I got a panasonic to replace mine with, but it is nowhere nears a good and user friendly IMO. Mobiles have a shorter expected life, due to technology changes being faster, but with the iphone at least it looks like they expect to support a phone model with the software updates for 4 years +.

I have been affected by a manufacturer not updating android before on a flagship phone, and not being able to run some modern apps on it after only 1.5 years of purchasing an expensive phone. So I now mainly stick to iphones, apart from cheap androids, because of that longer support period they provide, and the update comes directly fro apple.

Part of the problem is that we have become a disposable society and manufacturers want us to replace devices more often so they can sell more, rather than having parts that can swapped out, like with PCs to upgrade them. Prior to smart phones, people used to easily get 5 years or more out of their phone.

vyfster

67 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 9

#1882677 12-Oct-2017 22:08

sbiddle:

Like the Tivo issue the reality is consumer electronics goods have a life.

100% agree. Nothing lasts forever. At least nothing built in the modern age. So what is the expected life of a premium / flagship phone?

mattwnz

20515 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4795

#1882692 12-Oct-2017 23:42

vyfster:

sbiddle:

Like the Tivo issue the reality is consumer electronics goods have a life.

100% agree. Nothing lasts forever. At least nothing built in the modern age. So what is the expected life of a premium / flagship phone?

The life is largely based on how much use the product has had, and how worn out it is. Phones have a higher amount of wear and tear due to them being mobile, so have a shorter expect life, than say a desktop or a tivo. But with phones, and Tivo, it is almost solely based on proprietary software, so the manufactures control how long the usable life is. Of course the hardware could continue to work for a decade longer than that. With a computer, the OS tends to last many years, and you can also install other OSs on it.

For a premium phone, maybe look at how long apple supports the iphone for, as to how long it should last for. I still have ipods that are over a decade old, and still work 100% to their specs (apart from battery life), but they aren't a 'cloud' type device.

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