Qantas grounded indefinitely ... is this the beginning of the end ... again?

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#539391 30-Oct-2011 22:55

networkn: techno: no, it's the unions holding the entire nation to ransom.

Also are you claiming a captain at Qantas would need to start near the bottom at AirNZ? I don't believe that for a single second. You might be first mate for 3 months or so but no chance they get a massive degrade in rank.

You don't have to believe me go and find out for your self but I can assure you that anyone going to Air New Zealand will start as a Second Officer no matter what their experience and will hold that rank for quite some time. That's how it works in many airlines.

Once you've found out come back and let me know if what I said was correct.

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#539393 30-Oct-2011 23:07

John2010:

Yes it does ring a bell with me - in the terms that you say it, it means that yellow men and woman are not as competent to crew ships as white ones are. A claim I do not agree with and have in fact the experience to know that it is not true. Perhaps surprisingly to some, they can fly planes pretty well too.

It is the register the ship is on not the nationality of the crew members nor their pay that determines the level and standing of the qualifications required. Rena is on the Liberian Register of Ships which is in fact a STCW (Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping) Convention white listed register just as is the NZ Register, for example.

I wasn't trying to cast aspersions on the crew I was referring to the discrepancies found on that ship in Australia and again in New Zealand which reflects on the way that ship was run and the attitude of the owners. You also have to wonder why we have foreign crewed vessels operating between our ports in New Zealand. Why aren't they crewed by New Zealanders? I can guess why.

Perhaps the comparison I should have used is the Korean fishing boats that employ their labour under conditions that would be unacceptable to a New Zealander yet they operate in our waters catching our fish for companies based in New Zealand. Why does this happen? Because they're cheap and the companies can make more money. Doesn't the fact that one boat sank with loss of life or when another one came into port the crew jumped ship because of the appalling conditions make you think something isn't right with this setup.

The staff at Qantas are trying to keep their jobs in Australia.

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hairy1

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#539414 31-Oct-2011 07:41

If a QANTAS A380 captain or a QANTAS B737 first officer obtained a job with Air NZ they would start at the bottom of the seniority list regardless of their experience. The start position in the past was a 737 First Officer or long haul Second Officer. I have been with Air NZ for 7 years and am still a 737 first officer. The same would go for the former A380 Captain...

My views (except when I am looking out their windows) are not those of my employer.

Handle9

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#539419 31-Oct-2011 07:57

I always find it a little bit sad the way that industrial disputes are portrayed as "evil unions" or "facist management."

At the end of the day management wants to take the company in a certain direction and the labour force doesn't agree (as obviously they don't want to lose their jobs). The unions are doing their job by trying to protect jobs and get pay rises.

Some posts have claimed that the only reason for a company to exist is to make as large a profit as possible. By the same rationale the labour force should be trying to get paid as much as possible for doing as little work as possible as the only reason to work is to earn as much money as possible in as short a time as possible.

The realities of life in a large corporate is that unless management works very hard to engage it's work force it's pretty easy to become disenchanted and for the atmosphere to become toxic. They can't get rid of everyone and start again (aside from the legality of it it's impractical to find thousands of people with the required skills). This means that management needs to find a way to engage with the unions.

If the unions are not practical there will be conflict, it's inevitable. This doesn't necessarily mean that all the fault lies with them as it probably doesn't all lie with management.

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#539421 31-Oct-2011 08:25

Handle9:

The realities of life in a large corporate is that unless management works very hard to engage it's work force it's pretty easy to become disenchanted and for the atmosphere to become toxic. They can't get rid of everyone and start again (aside from the legality of it it's impractical to find thousands of people with the required skills). This means that management needs to find a way to engage with the unions.

If the unions are not practical there will be conflict, it's inevitable. This doesn't necessarily mean that all the fault lies with them as it probably doesn't all lie with management.

The engagement or more the lack of it is really at the heart of the issue here. How do you improve engagement when you blatantly tell lies about the impact of the actions of any action the worker may have taken? Recently Qantas claimed they had to ground aircraft and cancel flight due to the actions of the engineers. Qantas held a press conference in front of the some of the "grounded aircraft" telling everyone the story of how the "bad unions" had forced them to ground these aircraft, when in fact these aircraft had been replaced by newer aircraft and were listed as being for sale.

The second statement about being practical and reasonable is also very true.

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old3eyes

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#539423 31-Oct-2011 08:55

Just glad that Air NZ and the Qantas merger didn't happen..

Regards,

Old3eyes

networkn

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#539447 31-Oct-2011 10:13

hairy1: If a QANTAS A380 captain or a QANTAS B737 first officer obtained a job with Air NZ they would start at the bottom of the seniority list regardless of their experience. The start position in the past was a 737 First Officer or long haul Second Officer. I have been with Air NZ for 7 years and am still a 737 first officer. The same would go for the former A380 Captain...

Why would they do that ?

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#539462 31-Oct-2011 10:42

Technofreak:

I wasn't trying to cast aspersions on the crew I was referring to the discrepancies found on that ship in Australia and again in New Zealand which reflects on the way that ship was run and the attitude of the owners.

It is very common for discrepencies to exist on ships, the question is how serious they are. You obviously know what the discrepencies are as you are able to claim they reflect on the ship's management and owners.

As I have not been privy to them in the manner that you apparantly have been would you list them for me and then I will respond as my opinion of them. Thanks.

You can state the list exactly as it is without any of your own clarifications as to what the items may mean as I have had much experience managing surveyors who do both flag state and classification society inspections so will have no difficulty interpeting them.

Regarding your claim that only NZ crews should operate on the NZ coast, well I'll leave that with you as it is really just depends on how far to the left one is. It is just a union promoted concept that they should not and that purely for job protection rather than any economic or safety reasons. You may not be aware that in fact many of the vessels that operate solely on the coast and which the ordinary NZ'er thinks are NZ vessels and so are quite happy with, are, in fact, foreign vessels in that they are on the registers of other countries e.g. Cook Strait ferries.

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#539489 31-Oct-2011 11:33

Technofreak: Yes, Australian pilots are better paid than pilots in New Zealand and some other parts of the world but before we go picking on the "bad over paid" Aussie pilots perhaps there should be comparisons made with salaries in other industries. I think you might find electricians, mechanics, doctors etc in Aussie are much better paid than their New Zealand counterparts, why pick on the pilots.

I don't know why people are picking on the pilots. The main unions that are impacting Qantas are Transportation Workers Union (TWU) and Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA). The Australian International Pilots Association (AIPA) has been relatively sedate in their industrial action (and to a lesser extent, their demands).

However, the relevance of mechanics or electricians is quite low: the electrical or mechanical firm employing them is not competing with a Singaporea or UAE based mechanical or electrical company. Qantas is competing against global players and has lost a significant amount of market share - it's now only 18% of the Australian international market.

I think what's happened with Qantas is ridiculous from both sides - union and management. If I was a still a shareholder I'd be furious, since the board and CEO have managed to wipe millions if not billions off the value of Qantas with this action and poor workforce management.

As far as the low pay for pilots in the US goes, it is as far as I know true - I have a few friends who are US pilots at various airlines and the starting salary for some positions is USD$18K. Unfortunately for pilots and other 'mass employed skills', the seniority system takes precedence over skills based evaluation and in many ways sucks, particularly if you want to change jobs.

I feel sorry for all the QF passengers caught in this mess. I don't particularly feel sorry for the unions or management.

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#539537 31-Oct-2011 12:46

networkn:
hairy1: If a QANTAS A380 captain or a QANTAS B737 first officer obtained a job with Air NZ they would start at the bottom of the seniority list regardless of their experience. The start position in the past was a 737 First Officer or long haul Second Officer. I have been with Air NZ for 7 years and am still a 737 first officer. The same would go for the former A380 Captain...

Why would they do that ?

Because that's the way it's done in the aviation industry for many airlines, it's hard for some people outside of the aviation industry to understand how and why. It's a system that's not perfect but has stood the test of time. It may change in the future but certainly not overnight. So back to your opinion of "If you don't like this place go elsewhere", as you can probably now see, this isn't a viable option for many pilots.

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#539558 31-Oct-2011 13:31

Technofreak:
networkn:
hairy1: If a QANTAS A380 captain or a QANTAS B737 first officer obtained a job with Air NZ they would start at the bottom of the seniority list regardless of their experience. The start position in the past was a 737 First Officer or long haul Second Officer. I have been with Air NZ for 7 years and am still a 737 first officer. The same would go for the former A380 Captain...

Why would they do that ?

Because that's the way it's done in the aviation industry for many airlines, it's hard for some people outside of the aviation industry to understand how and why. It's a system that's not perfect but has stood the test of time. It may change in the future but certainly not overnight. So back to your opinion of "If you don't like this place go elsewhere", as you can probably now see, this isn't a viable option for many pilots.

Although this is the way the industry works it sounds like a recipe for breeding discontent. You don't dare leave least you loose seniority... so you hang in there and stew, and expect more $$ because the other option is return to square one.

May as well bring them all into the public service then as it sounds like a public service model (but with higher salaries).

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#539574 31-Oct-2011 13:56

John2010:

It is very common for discrepencies to exist on ships, the question is how serious they are. You obviously know what the discrepencies are as you are able to claim they reflect on the ship's management and owners.

As I have not been privy to them in the manner that you apparantly have been would you list them for me and then I will respond as my opinion of them. Thanks.

You can state the list exactly as it is without any of your own clarifications as to what the items may mean as I have had much experience managing surveyors who do both flag state and classification society inspections so will have no difficulty interpeting them.

Thanks for the condescending nature of your post. I only know what I have read in the paper so I guess that means no more than you know, and yes, newspaper reports can be unreliable. I am familiar with vehicles (to use that term very loosely) operating with discrepancies, it's a fact of life. However when I read about a ship being stopped from leaving port until discrepancies are rectified as was the case with the Rena when it was in Australia very recently that sets alarm bell ringing about the way its owners operate.

John2010: Regarding your claim that only NZ crews should operate on the NZ coast, well I'll leave that with you as it is really just depends on how far to the left one is. It is just a union promoted concept that they should not and that purely for job protection rather than any economic or safety reasons. You may not be aware that in fact many of the vessels that operate solely on the coast and which the ordinary NZ'er thinks are NZ vessels and so are quite happy with, are, in fact, foreign vessels in that they are on the registers of other countries e.g. Cook Strait ferries.

This sort of comment really annoys me.

Firstly I didn't say that only New Zealand crews should operate on the New Zealand coast however it would appear that foreign crews are being used at the expense of New Zealand crews in some instances (particularly fishing boats) and if that is happening, it isn't OK in my book.

To take your argument a little further, why don't we get surveyors and survey managers from somewhere the labour is very cheap and get them to do your job? After all the economy would be better off as the survey would cost the ship owner much less money and would be able to provide a cheaper service to their customers.

It's not just about unions protecting jobs it's more about the standard of living we have here in New Zealand compared to some other countries and having jobs for New Zealanders to enjoy the standard of living we all expect to have. Using your argument the only way we will ever be able to keep jobs in New Zealand is for our standard of living to drop to that of these other countries, places where many New Zealanders would not want to live, primarily because of the standard of living in those countries.

Re: the salaries in the US, I see someone had posted a figure of $18k as a salary for a First Officer in the US, Isn't that a princely sum to live on especially after completing a very extensive training programme, all self funded I might add.

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#539584 31-Oct-2011 14:16

oxnsox:
Technofreak:
networkn:
hairy1: If a QANTAS A380 captain or a QANTAS B737 first officer obtained a job with Air NZ they would start at the bottom of the seniority list regardless of their experience. The start position in the past was a 737 First Officer or long haul Second Officer. I have been with Air NZ for 7 years and am still a 737 first officer. The same would go for the former A380 Captain...

Why would they do that ??

Because that's the way it's done in the aviation industry for many airlines, it's hard for some people outside of the aviation industry to understand how and why. ?It's a system that's not perfect but has stood the test of time. It may change in the future but certainly not overnight. ? So back to your opinion of "If you don't like this place go elsewhere", as you can probably now see, this isn't a viable option for many pilots.

Although this is the way the industry works it sounds like a recipe for breeding discontent. You don't dare leave least you loose seniority... so you hang in there and stew, and expect more $$ because the other option is return to square one.

May as well bring them all into the public service then as it sounds like a public service model (but with higher salaries).

Seniority has been an age old debate. There are many arguments to both sides but generally within the industry it is considered the most equitable system.

In Airlines where there is no senority there can be more discontent as you may have direct entry Captains who may have less experience then the the First Officer and it can end up as "who you know, not what you know". This is simplified example.

Generally in a senority based system most people are reasonably satisfied as they know exactly where they lie in the scheme of things. Those that don't like it generally go contract flying.

My views (except when I am looking out their windows) are not those of my employer.

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#539586 31-Oct-2011 14:17

oxnsox:
Although this is the way the industry works it sounds like a recipe for breeding discontent. You don't dare leave least you loose seniority... so you hang in there and stew, and expect more $$ because the other option is return to square one.

May as well bring them all into the public service then as it sounds like a public service model (but with higher salaries).

From what I hear the vast majority of pilots are quite content. When choosing an airline to work for most pilots look at the long term picture and choose their employer accordingly.

While the seniority system has it's draw backs all of the alternatives in most cases have even less going for them. For a start the seniority system provides for a level of stability for both the employer and employee.

It will take about three months in most cases for a pilot to be released to "fly the line" from the time he/she starts with an airline. Having a high pilot turn over is very costly and undesirable for the airline. When an airline recruits First Officers they are really recruiting potential Captains.

The seniority system provides a positive career path for a pilot, provided they continue to meet the operational standards required by the airline and the regulator (six monthly competency checks) they know they can expect to progress from First Officer to Captain.

The seniority system is generally the fairest way for advancement, yes there are the few hotshots and the few not so hotshots but by far the majority are in the middle. How do you differentiate between them all?

These are just a few reasons why the seniority system is used.

To an outsider the seniority system seems "out of date" but I'm not sure there is a better system in this case.

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#539587 31-Oct-2011 14:23

I feel sorry for all the QF passengers caught in this mess. I don't particularly feel sorry for the unions or management.

I have to agree re the passengers. Also agree there is fault on both sides, you can't pick a fight with yourself.

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