Article on Stuff opens a can of religious and secular worms!

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#1008927 19-Mar-2014 12:44

Klipspringer:
TimA:
Jas777: ubergeeknz

I always thought it was written by the minnions of a Roman Emperor to keep the oiks in line.

It was probably revised 100's of times. Not to mention translated through how many languages..

Learn greek and hebrew, read the original manuscripts. No translations required ;-)

I dont tend to read books or learn other languages.

sxz

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#1008928 19-Mar-2014 12:44

Jaxson:
sxz: I put this together quickly in Excel using Census Data. Thought you guys might find it interesting. Over 120 Religions in NZ

Sorry but I can't quite make that out, can you make it any bigger?
I'm interested in the total percentage that didn't pick an accepted answer, or said no religion outright, or said atheist, or said something stupid that voided their response.

Amended slightly:

Note - answers add up to over 100% presumably because some people identify with more than one religion. Also there are probably several responses someone might have if they are not religious - have a look at the original data it's quite fascinating: http://www.stats.govt.nz/Census/2013-census/data-tables/total-by-topic.aspx

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#1008931 19-Mar-2014 12:47

I think it is is good and should be taught. There was no way my parents could have taught me about Christianity because they weren't Christian! It was not a difficult leap to make in later life to be respectful of all religions and while that was because my parents taught me respect it was nice to have been taught parts of the bible.

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#1008934 19-Mar-2014 12:54

freitasm: I have removed one mention of Godwin's Law. As per my post in another thread, THIS IS A GENERAL WARNING.

Anyone invoking Godwin Law from this point gets banned without warning BECAUSE THIS IS A WARNING.

How on earth did someone make that jump!

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#1008936 19-Mar-2014 12:57

Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:
The teacher did not ask the question

KiwiNZ: A lesson on the origins of the universe

Teacher; there are this e who subscribe to the bing bang theory for the creation of the universe, the beginning being a singularity that resulted in a 'big bang' event.... blah blah

Now you are confusing me mate ;-)

"Pupil; are there any other ideas?

Teacher; yes there are, one is that the universe was created by a deity or god."

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

jonathan18

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#1008947 19-Mar-2014 13:05

ubergeeknz: However I don't want my child growing up learning not to think critically about the world around him, and instead accepting as absolute truth a story book written hundreds of years ago by laymen, based on the ramblings of a self-proclaimed prophet. I'm sure many people agree with me.

I think the highlighted bit above is the critical aspect.

The problem is that nearly all religious sessions in state schools are 1. Christian only and 2. not education but indoctrination (Take this from someone who only a few years ago went through primary teacher training). We have elected to not subject our child to these "lessons" for these reasons, and this is despite my wife being Christian.

The point is the people taking these sessions are not interested in educating about different religions or faiths, or engaging in meaningful debate with the students; they're volunteers from a faith-based organisation, pushing a particular barrow (and are almost always from the one Christian group). I understand there's nothing stopping schools from using this same Education Act exemption to introduce their children to multiple religions, however given this would probably need to be delivered by a number of groups or individuals from outside the school, it is likely that few schools do and would ever do this. And there still remains the matter that having a practitioner "teaching" their faith is never going to result in critical engagement.

Given this, the only appropriate response if to have such sessions offered outside of class time (eg before or after school). However, state schools should be able to tackle religion and faith as a subject - to take any discussion of religion out of state/secular education would be to cut out a large chunk of important knowledge that should be shared with all students. To not deal with this topic is simply going to limit one of the places where meaningful conversations could be had. If done properly, such lessons could hopefully improve the level of knowledge and understanding that appears to be low in an unfortunately high proportion of the NZ population. And I write this as a life-long atheist...

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#1008952 19-Mar-2014 13:14

Religious education, suitably cross faith/covering all aspects of spirituality, with no element of indoctrination or "scare tactics" (your going to hell etc) is something suitable to be taught to older children (perhaps the same age we start teaching health/sexed). Religious Indoctrination on the other hand should be legally considered child abuse, the children removed to CYFS care and the parents jailed as they would be for any other form of severe mental/emotional abuse.

to quote the internet "Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around... and PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat."

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#1008953 19-Mar-2014 13:16

sdav: I think it is is good and should be taught. There was no way my parents could have taught me about Christianity because they weren't Christian! It was not a difficult leap to make in later life to be respectful of all religions and while that was because my parents taught me respect it was nice to have been taught parts of the bible.

The point is, though, is it's not "taught" in the way we would expect other subjects to be taught. The "teachers" are not trained; there is (in all the sessions I've witnessed) never an attempt to provide balance or even acknowledge an alternative viewpoint - (Christian) religion is presented as fact.

Young kids are gullible and often accept their "teacher's" word as gospel (pardon the pun); it's just not appropriate in a secular education system to expose them to indoctrination. If parents want that for their kids they can always send them to a "special character" school such as a Catholic school.

sdav

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#1008957 19-Mar-2014 13:26

jonathan18:
sdav: I think it is is good and should be taught. There was no way my parents could have taught me about Christianity because they weren't Christian! It was not a difficult leap to make in later life to be respectful of all religions and while that was because my parents taught me respect it was nice to have been taught parts of the bible.

The point is, though, is it's not "taught" in the way we would expect other subjects to be taught. The "teachers" are not trained; there is (in all the sessions I've witnessed) never an attempt to provide balance or even acknowledge an alternative viewpoint - (Christian) religion is presented as fact.

Young kids are gullible and often accept their "teacher's" word as gospel (pardon the pun); it's just not appropriate in a secular education system to expose them to indoctrination. If parents want that for their kids they can always send them to a "special character" school such as a Catholic school.

The people that came into my school (from memory, it was primary school) were just from the local church. They told religious stories often where the main goal was to teach morals. It was fine and I'm definitely the better person for it. Some parents had their kids sit out as that was their choice but in hindsight it seems ridiculous. It's funny we have this debate in a country where we are well known for exploring the world and learning about other cultures/beliefs. Of course you can't teach every religion but what ever. Just kids knowing what their friends or other sin the community may believe is not a bad thing.

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#1008963 19-Mar-2014 13:35

sdav:
jonathan18:
sdav: I think it is is good and should be taught. There was no way my parents could have taught me about Christianity because they weren't Christian! It was not a difficult leap to make in later life to be respectful of all religions and while that was because my parents taught me respect it was nice to have been taught parts of the bible.

The point is, though, is it's not "taught" in the way we would expect other subjects to be taught. The "teachers" are not trained; there is (in all the sessions I've witnessed) never an attempt to provide balance or even acknowledge an alternative viewpoint - (Christian) religion is presented as fact.

Young kids are gullible and often accept their "teacher's" word as gospel (pardon the pun); it's just not appropriate in a secular education system to expose them to indoctrination. If parents want that for their kids they can always send them to a "special character" school such as a Catholic school.

The people that came into my school (from memory, it was primary school) were just from the local church. They told religious stories often where the main goal was to teach morals. It was fine and I'm definitely the better person for it. Some parents had their kids sit out as that was their choice but in hindsight it seems ridiculous. It's funny we have this debate in a country where we are well known for exploring the world and learning about other cultures/beliefs. Of course you can't teach every religion but what ever. Just kids knowing what their friends or other sin the community may believe is not a bad thing.

Have to agree to disagree on this! "Teaching" people about one religion - and indeed the dominant one in this country (so the one they're most likely to have been exposed to outside of school) - doesn't really open up childrens' minds. If you can't teach about the multiplicity of religions - and indeed the various views on religion - then it's probably best not to do it at all.

EDIT - I'd go further than what I said above: presenting religion from a single viewpoint does the opposite of opening up children's minds - it presents them a narrow perspective that totally fails to reflect the variety and multiplicity of faiths/religions.

ronw

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#1008969 19-Mar-2014 13:47

But which religion and what sort. Most people that say comments like below really seem to mean Christian religion whihc leaves all the other religions out. After all Christianity is only a devolve from Judaism, Islam is a mixture of Judaism and Christianity but what of Hinduism, Bhuddism, and all the other religions in the world. Would it not be better to teach children critical thinking and leave religion to parents should they be so inclined

<quote>I believe that religion plays an important part of an upbringing. I do understand some terrible things have been done or are done in the name of religions, but for a huge number of people, they use it as a guideline
for behaving better, and it gives them comfort and peace, and at the end of the day, I don't see the harm in it. </quote>

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#1008976 19-Mar-2014 13:56

Jas777: ubergeeknz

I always thought it was written by the minnions of a Roman Emperor to keep the oiks in line.

Well, put it this way.

Science teaches us to ALWAYS question, to test the boundaries of the body of knowledge, and hence update that body of knowledge. Nobody is going to stone you to death for questioning something written in a Science book, and going out to test that thing for yourself.

Whereas most Religions (pretty much all flavours of Christianity tend this way) teach us to NEVER question the body of knowledge. Why would you want to think for your self? Instead, here, let us interpret for you what's in this book, which is the Word of God (just trust us on that one). Because to question the word of God, the Creator of all things, and/or his Prophet sent to Earth to teach us the way? Blasphemy! How could you think you know better than God!?

Which belief system do you think suits those in power more, in terms of keeping the populous under control?

ronw

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#1008982 19-Mar-2014 14:02

hate to seem to be in defense of religion but there are plenty of Religions that encourage free thought. The Roman church has some of the best theologians in the business. Anglicans and Judaism both have long history of discussion and have shown willingness to accommodate new ideas when they arrive.
However they all have basic tenets that tend to get treated as The Word of God and therefor not to be trifled with. But even the most basic ideas about God do change over time.

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#1008985 19-Mar-2014 14:06

Klipspringer:
TimA:
Jas777: ubergeeknz

I always thought it was written by the minnions of a Roman Emperor to keep the oiks in line.

It was probably revised 100's of times. Not to mention translated through how many languages..

Learn greek and hebrew, read the original manuscripts. No translations required ;-)

The Bible is portrayed as fact when it is the opinion and interpretation of many people. Even the very first would be opinion and interpretation. A lot of it is said to be memories and eye whitness accounts and those are woefully inaccurate.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#1008994 19-Mar-2014 14:09

ronw: hate to seem to be in defense of religion but there are plenty of Religions that encourage free thought. The Roman church has some of the best theologians in the business. Anglicans and Judaism both have long history of discussion and have shown willingness to accommodate new ideas when they arrive.
However they all have basic tenets that tend to get treated as The Word of God and therefor not to be trifled with. But even the most basic ideas about God do change over time.

Ha, yep.. "and now a message from our sponsor"

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