RNZAF Boeing 757 breaks down when carrying PM. RNZAF must have an atrocious dispatch reliability figure.

Forums › Off topic › RNZAF Boeing 757 breaks down when carrying PM. RNZAF must have an atrocious dispatch reliability figure.

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#1658258 26-Oct-2016 15:33

clinty: Although it appears the Orion upgrade is the only one on the books at the moment

http://www.airforce.mil.nz/projects/

P3K2 Project has been running for years. They were working on it when I stopped working for them in 2010; I consulted on it once or twice. Its a huuuuge capability improvement.

Unless they're now talking about an upgrade to the upgrade. I suppose it is 6 years later.

But because it's such a big upgrade, I wouldn't be surprised if this is simply more-of-the-same.

The Orion is impressively capable for its age.

RNZAF are actually pretty good from a maintenance standpoint. The biggest issue with the 757's is that they're commercial airframes that would, if operated by a commercial operator, have a LOT more airtime than RNZAF gets out of them. So their turbines aren't spinning as often. I remember a story I heard about them having corrosion maintenance issues due to the fact they spend an inordinate amount of time (compared to commercial carriers) at a standstill.

Made slightly worse by Whenuapai's proximity to water.

Agree with other comments made about the 757 suitability for the role and the way RNZAF use them.

I've flown in one of the RNZAF 757's, worked well. Nice seemingly vertical takeoff out of Wellington :)

RNZAF's fleet will remain the minimum viable for its mission, the 757's are faster than the C130s, have useful modifications for VIP use and for for a mix of pax and cargo, have been flown to Antarctica and were the right airframe for the job at the time they're procured. When they're not being used by the PM they can be tasked for scheduled air transport services (SATS) to move military pers around the country, or any other operational tasking. RNZAF is the Governments aviation operator. They're the right people to be on standby for government purposes; AirNZ is a commercial operator and has a different set of targets, and likely doesn't have airframes to keep hanging around for the government's whim.

I agree the timing of this incident was unfortunate but these things happen. Even if we had a fancy bizjet, chances are we'd only have one of them.

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#1658346 26-Oct-2016 16:33

In the same vein... a friend who worked at Ohakea told of how the RNZAF Cessna Golden Eagles (when they had them) engines didn't last as long as was expected. Turned out that because there were lots of pilots trying to stay current, and they got relatively little time in the Golden Eagle, the pilots were practicing single-engine operations on almost every flight. That in turn was putting a lot more strain than usual on the running engine.

So the different usage by the RNZAF of these aircraft caused those aircraft to be relatively high maintenance compared to other organisations. It could be that the same applies to the 757s.

Fred99

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#1658353 26-Oct-2016 16:45

The thing about the use of the 757 for visits like that is that as well as journalists, there are quite a few business people, and a services cricket team. So there's a bit of pomp and ceremony involved, respect earned in a country like India, being with the Prime Minister of NZ's official visit and flying on the state aeroplane is a door-opener. On the way, I suppose there's a bit of a school bus trip feeling - it's not Trump's $100 million luxury 757 - it's a troop/cargo carrier. No point the PM having at his disposal some kind of business jet, as that excludes taking the delegation, from which (hopefully) there's some return for NZ. Not much point having a wide-bodied long range airliner as Air Force One - NZ style - when it'd probably only be able to fly domestically between Akl and Chch.

amiga500

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#1658430 26-Oct-2016 18:44

Well, how about a re-structure. Let the navy operate the P3 Orions something like the Fleet Air Arm. The Orions would be maintained by Air NZ or in Australia. Training for the P3s to be done in Australia or the USA.

Let the army operate the helicopter fleet & move the maintenance crews across to the army.

Let Air NZ operate the 757s or similar aircraft on behalf of the Government. Have some arrangement where they are allowed to carry freight but have to be available within 12 hours for anything the Govt. needs them for.

Do not buy the C17s. Do buy the Grumman Gulfstream.

Give up all pilot training done by the RNZAF.

Goodbye RNZAF and its Air Vice Marshal and ridiculously inflated command structure.

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#1658492 26-Oct-2016 19:41

amiga500:
Well, how about a re-structure.     Let the navy operate the P3 Orions something like the Fleet Air Arm.    The Orions would be maintained by Air NZ or in Australia.    Training for the P3s to be done in Australia or the USA.

Let the army operate the helicopter fleet & move the maintenance crews across to the army.

Let Air NZ operate the 757s or similar aircraft on behalf of the Government.     Have some arrangement where they are allowed to carry freight but have to be available within 12 hours for anything the Govt. needs them for.

Do not buy the C17s.    Do buy the Grumman Gulfstream.

Give up all pilot training done by the RNZAF.

Goodbye RNZAF and its Air Vice Marshal and ridiculously inflated command structure.

If a restructure of the NZDF was in order a merger of Airforce and Army makes sense, your idea is illogical. Explain how will the Army transport needs be met in your hmmmm scheme?

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

networkn

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#1658497 26-Oct-2016 19:48

amiga500:

Well, how about a re-structure.     Let the navy operate the P3 Orions something like the Fleet Air Arm.    The Orions would be maintained by Air NZ or in Australia.    Training for the P3s to be done in Australia or the USA.

Let the army operate the helicopter fleet & move the maintenance crews across to the army.

Let Air NZ operate the 757s or similar aircraft on behalf of the Government.     Have some arrangement where they are allowed to carry freight but have to be available within 12 hours for anything the Govt. needs them for.

Do not buy the C17s.    Do buy the Grumman Gulfstream.

Give up all pilot training done by the RNZAF.

Goodbye RNZAF and its Air Vice Marshal and ridiculously inflated command structure.

I am lost for words. So So many flaws.

What on earth would you use Grumman Gulfstream for !?

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Fred99

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#1658505 26-Oct-2016 20:01

Fred99:

Have they even stated what the issue was? They had a couple of attempts to leave from Townsville apparently, aborted a few seconds after they throttled up the engines. Without knowing. perhaps it's premature to suggest that it couldn't have happened with a brand new plane. They might have hit the panic button when they realised they'd emptied the fridge of Bollinger and caviar.

The Air Force says the fault that grounded a Boeing 757-200 delaying the Prime Minister's delegation to India was a faulty micro-switch.

It indicated that the fault had nothing to do with wear and tear or the age of the aircraft - 23 years old.

"This fault to the warning system was not a regular occurrence and is unrelated to the amount of flying the aircraft has completed," the Air Force statement said.

The faulty switch led to the illumination of a cockpit warning related to the aircraft's spoilers (speed brakes), causing the crew to believe the aircraft was potentially not in take-off configuration.

The system was reset in accordance with Boeing procedures but the fault occurred again during a second attempt at take-off.

John Key said the planes have been reliable since he started using them in 2008.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11736389

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#1658585 26-Oct-2016 21:53

The Gulfstream GS650ER with its range and speed would be able to reliably transport our PM and a small staff all over the World. Some of these 'trade missions' are nothing more than expensive tax payer funded junkets. Arriving on an old B757 impresses no-one.

The Govt. owned B757 type aircraft or similar could transport the army to where it needs to go. Or the navy could get them there. Maybe the USAF or Australian air force may assist depending on how much they want NZ to participate in the mission.

After the re-structure the Naval P3 Orions would be led by an officer with rank of commander. The Army helicopters would be led by an officer with the rank of major. One only has to pay a visit to the Air Force Museum to realise how ridiculous it is to have an Air Vice Marshall in charge of a handful of planes. In Yes Prime Minister there is a joke about how many admirals the Royal Navy had for a tiny post war fleet.

Getting back to the Gulfstream GS650ER, wouldn't it be nice for New Zealand to have the best business jet in the World for our Prime Minister to travel in? Something every New Zealander could be proud of. This would do more for our image as a kick ass modern country

than struggling on with out-dated planes that only make NZ a laughing stock.

Pumpedd

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#1658590 26-Oct-2016 22:01

amiga500:

The Gulfstream GS650ER with its range and speed would be able to reliably transport our PM and a small staff all over the World.    Some of these 'trade missions' are nothing more than expensive tax payer funded junkets.    Arriving on an old B757 impresses no-one.

The Govt. owned B757 type aircraft or similar could transport the army to where it needs to go.    Or the navy could get them there.    Maybe the USAF or Australian air force may assist depending on how much they want NZ to participate in the mission.

After the re-structure the Naval P3 Orions would be led by an officer with rank of commander.    The Army helicopters would be led by an officer with the rank of major.    One only has to pay a visit to the Air Force Museum to realise how ridiculous it is to have an Air Vice Marshall in charge of a handful of planes.      In Yes Prime Minister there is a joke about how many admirals the Royal Navy had for a tiny post war fleet.

Getting back to the Gulfstream GS650ER, wouldn't it be nice for New Zealand to have the best business jet in the World for our Prime Minister to travel in?   Something every New Zealander could be proud of. This would do more for our image as a kick ass modern country

than struggling on with out-dated planes that only make NZ a laughing stock.

The PM doesnt usually travel with a small staff....he travels with large numbers of people including staff, media and NZ Business people ...as its usually all about trade opportunities.

Where the PM travels with a few staff he usually takes Air NZ...makes sense to me.

I dont see how a Gulfstream would be "nice" for NZ to have.

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#1658593 26-Oct-2016 22:04

amiga500:

The Gulfstream GS650ER with its range and speed would be able to reliably transport our PM and a small staff all over the World.    Some of these 'trade missions' are nothing more than expensive tax payer funded junkets.    Arriving on an old B757 impresses no-one.

The Govt. owned B757 type aircraft or similar could transport the army to where it needs to go.    Or the navy could get them there.    Maybe the USAF or Australian air force may assist depending on how much they want NZ to participate in the mission.

After the re-structure the Naval P3 Orions would be led by an officer with rank of commander.    The Army helicopters would be led by an officer with the rank of major.    One only has to pay a visit to the Air Force Museum to realise how ridiculous it is to have an Air Vice Marshall in charge of a handful of planes.      In Yes Prime Minister there is a joke about how many admirals the Royal Navy had for a tiny post war fleet.

Getting back to the Gulfstream GS650ER, wouldn't it be nice for New Zealand to have the best business jet in the World for our Prime Minister to travel in?   Something every New Zealander could be proud of. This would do more for our image as a kick ass modern country

than struggling on with out-dated planes that only make NZ a laughing stock.

NZ wouldn't be proud to own a Gulfstream, they would moan and complain and whine and make corruption comments and 100 other things.

If you don't believe me, check out the fuss made when we refreshed our BMW fleet. Some people were suggesting Hybrid Corollas and Camrys.

BlakJak

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#1658635 26-Oct-2016 22:27

Pumpedd:
amiga500:

The Gulfstream GS650ER with its range and speed would be able to reliably transport our PM and a small staff all over the World.    Some of these 'trade missions' are nothing more than expensive tax payer funded junkets.    Arriving on an old B757 impresses no-one.

The Govt. owned B757 type aircraft or similar could transport the army to where it needs to go.    Or the navy could get them there.    Maybe the USAF or Australian air force may assist depending on how much they want NZ to participate in the mission.

After the re-structure the Naval P3 Orions would be led by an officer with rank of commander.    The Army helicopters would be led by an officer with the rank of major.    One only has to pay a visit to the Air Force Museum to realise how ridiculous it is to have an Air Vice Marshall in charge of a handful of planes.      In Yes Prime Minister there is a joke about how many admirals the Royal Navy had for a tiny post war fleet.

Getting back to the Gulfstream GS650ER, wouldn't it be nice for New Zealand to have the best business jet in the World for our Prime Minister to travel in?   Something every New Zealander could be proud of. This would do more for our image as a kick ass modern country

than struggling on with out-dated planes that only make NZ a laughing stock.

The PM doesnt usually travel with a small staff....he travels with large numbers of people including staff, media and NZ Business people ...as its usually all about trade opportunities.

Where the PM travels with a few staff he usually takes Air NZ...makes sense to me.

I dont see how a Gulfstream would be "nice" for NZ to have.

I think amiga500 is trolling.

NZDF is already consolidating the three services in terms of the joint facilities.

But remember that the Air Forces of the world were spun out of the Army for a reason.

No signature to see here, move along...

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#1658645 26-Oct-2016 22:55

The 757 has, I believe, great presence when its out in the world representing NZ. Certainly looks better on an apron than a 737 or bizjet. And the model is good for a few years yet.

Really its limiting factor is range. I didn't think they still flew them to the ice after an incident a few years back.

Getting C-17 's can't really be an option, realistically you'd want 2, in order to meet availability requirements, but we'd likely under utilize even 1. Whilst a C-17 overcomes range issues, it's weight isn't ideal into some of our island neighbour airfields.
A-400 's are lighter, more modern, have the range requirements, and could load LAVs or an NH-90. And its a purchase that isn't associated with politically cuddling up to America. But that's where a P-8 purchase comes in. ;-)

Flagging an upgrade to Airforce assets sometime over the next decade hasn't really addressed the issues, but appears to. Still there'll be some other airframe options about in the next few years with soo many C-130 and P-3 airframes up for replacement around the globe

Fred99

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#1658649 26-Oct-2016 22:57

amiga500:

Some of these 'trade missions' are nothing more than expensive tax payer funded junkets. Arriving on an old B757 impresses no-one.

Well they rolled out the red carpet for JK when they (finally) got there.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11736346

I have no problem at all with use of such missions to promote NZ (hence yours and my) trade interests.

amiga500

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#1658819 27-Oct-2016 11:21

Another bad decision is buying the new T6 trainers. All training could be done in the US or Australia at military or civilian training providers. NZ makes so many poor decisions.

Fred99

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#1658821 27-Oct-2016 11:29

amiga500: Another bad decision is buying the new T6 trainers. All training could be done in the US or Australia at military or civilian training providers. NZ makes so many poor decisions.

All in the past.

With the highly skilled and trustworthy Hon Gerry Brownlee at the helm, it's all going to work out fine.

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