Qantas grounded indefinitely ... is this the beginning of the end ... again?

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#539597 31-Oct-2011 15:04

hairy1: Generally in a senority based system most people are reasonably satisfied as they know exactly where they lie in the scheme of things. Those that don't like it generally go contract flying.

Add to this, as a passenger, if someone has my life in their hands, with the potential of flying me and 500 odd others into a mountain/ground/hard object at 900kph, it's good to know they didn't just respond to a job ad in a newspaper yesterday...

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#539624 31-Oct-2011 16:18

Technofreak:
Thanks for the condescending nature of your post. I only know what I have read in the paper so I guess that means no more than you know...

No, it seems that I know more than you as I do understand that because a ship has deficiencies (arising from port state or flag state inspections, and even classification society surveys) that does not mean it is a risk. As you say, the media cannot be trusted to get it right yet you feel free to criticise the the vessel and its owners on the basis of what the media says.

Regarding your other comments what you are effectively saying without understanding is that all vessels that operate on the NZ coast should be demise chartered and flagged in NZ. It is not going to happen.

Regarding fishing, as I understand it the vessels you refer to are time chartered - what you are inferring is that they should be demise chartered and that by NZ companies only (and if one takes your other comments that they also be flagged in NZ). Without causing consternation to the international shipping world's conventions and the enactment of those in this and other countrys' legislation, etc it may be that the government could effect the same result by requiring that quota can only be caught by such demise chartered vessels by NZ companies. This will obviously (and has) raise other local issues which I won't get into.

Technofreak: Re: the salaries in the US, I see someone had posted a figure of $18k as a salary for a First Officer in the US, Isn't that a princely sum to live on especially after completing a very extensive training programme, all self funded I might add.

A first year FO in a regional and flying say Dash 8's gets around USD22/hr; on larger aircraft they get more, up to say around $35/hr for 737. As has been said seniority counts, these rates may approach approach quadrupling for a 10 year FO.

But in the end you are gnawing on the wrong guy because I have made no claim that US pilots get high salaries, I have only disputed Linuxluver's wild claim that they get less than McDonald's counter staff. I have taken pains to point out several times that pilot incomes in the US (and elsewhere) are affected by the big surplus of them. I suspect the many unemployed ones earning nothing hanker after even the opportunity to earn a low salary flying or perhaps even flipping burgers in McDonalds.

EDIT: A little off the thread topic but the following might be useful in understanding ship deficiencies. These are the figures for deficiencies and detentions in Australia from Port State inspections of ships for August 2011 being the most recent available -

Number of foreign ships inspected: 291, Number of deficiencies found: 776, Number of foreign ships detained: 28, Number of Australian ships inspected: 7, Number of deficiencies found: 23, Number of Australian ships detained: 0.

As can be seen, deficiencies are quite common and detentions not unusual (about 1 in 10 foreign ships inspected in that month). Deficiencies can be very minor, such as a misplaced item of documentation, a chart that has escaped having the latest weekly corrections annotated, etc, or serious such as important machinery with severe issues. In probably the majority of cases for ships that are detained the deficiency is such that it is remedied before the ship's previously scheduled departure time, so maybe fixed in a day.

EDIT, EDIT: here is the detention list for the Rena in Australia in July (I don't know if this is the one the media is prattling on about -

Serious deficiencies related to RO:Hatchway cover securing arrangements defective.
Incorrectly tensioned quick action cleat for hatch cover
Cracked compression rubber pad and rusted adjustment thread and not on quick acting cleat

Serious deficiencies relating to ISM:Nil.

Other serious deficiencies:Cargo not stowed and secured as per cargo securing manual.
Securing pins for lashing bar not original
Vessel has not been maintained between surveys.
Conditions of release:MF/HF radio equipment, hatch cover securing arrangements & cargo securing equipment to be permanently repaired as per Flag dispensation.

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#539648 31-Oct-2011 17:44

John,

I'll defer to your obviously superior expertise in the shipping industry.

I note you chose not to comment on the "imported labour" or outsourcing issue which is really at the heart of the Qantas dispute.

However to put the record straight in something else, and yes I know you didn't start it. This is more for other readers benefit.

John2010:
A first year FO in a regional and flying say Dash 8's gets around USD22/hr; on larger aircraft they get more, up to say around $35/hr for 737. As has been said seniority counts, these rates may approach approach quadrupling for a 10 year FO.

These figures you quote prove the figures others have quoted here. These figures per hour are "stick hours" in other words flying hours only (off blocks to on blocks) not duty time. The legal maximum flying hours per year in most countries is 1000 in some cases lower. The average regional pilot is working pretty damn hard to fly 900 hours per year and in reality would do 600 to 800 hours per year. 900 hours equates to $19800 at $22/hour.

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#539654 31-Oct-2011 17:54

John2010:
EDIT, EDIT: here is the detention list for the Rena in Australia in July (I don't know if this is the one the media is prattling on about -

Serious deficiencies related to RO:Hatchway cover securing arrangements defective.
Incorrectly tensioned quick action cleat for hatch cover
Cracked compression rubber pad and rusted adjustment thread and not on quick acting cleat

Serious deficiencies relating to ISM:Nil.

Other serious deficiencies:Cargo not stowed and secured as per cargo securing manual.
Securing pins for lashing bar not original
Vessel has not been maintained between surveys.
Conditions of release:MF/HF radio equipment, hatch cover securing arrangements & cargo securing equipment to be permanently repaired as per Flag dispensation.

That's what they were on about. To the uninitiated (me and others) there would appear to be some serious concerns especially when there are serious deficiencies listed and there are items requiring rectification prior to release.

To me the statement that the ship had not been maintained between surveys would be another concern and reflect poorly on the owners.

Can you see how I came to the conclusions I did? Was I wrong making these conclusions?

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#539658 31-Oct-2011 18:00

Yes I think we are pretty much in agreement on the hourly rates (ignoring the possibility of Minimum Monthlies and per diem $/hr, the latter adding a little bit). But keeping in mind these are first year rates - however fair it is or isn't seniority makes quite a difference, but saying that I am not saying that necessarily results in megabucks.

I don't know what the answer to the surplus is but still seem to be plenty around with stars and the romance of flying in their eyes and paying out a lot of money to learn to get no job at all.

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#539683 31-Oct-2011 19:12

Bring on the cheap flights that QANTAS will hopefully offer to build up their customers again!!!!

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#539727 31-Oct-2011 21:14

Fabian: Bring on the cheap flights that QANTAS will hopefully offer to build up their customers again!!!!

If you ask me Qantas will need much more than cheap flight to get some of their customers back.

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#539752 31-Oct-2011 23:00

Technofreak: Can you see how I came to the conclusions I did? Was I wrong making these conclusions?

You could not have come to the conclusions that you had come to on the basis of deficiencies because before I posted that information here today you had in fact said that you did not know what was on any deficiency list for the vessel.

And yes, if you had have had the list and come to the "conclusions" (but more correctly assumptions) you came to on the basis of it, then you very definitely were wrong doing so.

This is getting way off the thread's topic so I'll leave it at that.

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#539789 1-Nov-2011 08:26

John2010:
Technofreak: Can you see how I came to the conclusions I did? Was I wrong making these conclusions?

You could not have come to the conclusions that you had come to on the basis of deficiencies because before I posted that information here today you had in fact said that you did not know what was on any deficiency list for the vessel.

This is getting way off the thread's topic so I'll leave it at that.

Yes off topic a little however the way the likes of the Rena is being operated is a warning for the aviation industry since this is the way some in the aviation industry want to go.

John, Your reply is very assumptive and condescending.

The main points of the deficiencies you quoted were in several news items I read. So, yes as it turns out I did have the information to come to the conclusions I did (please note not assumptions). For your benefit here's a link to one such news item. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10758052

John2010: And yes, if you had have had the list and come to the "conclusions" (but more correctly assumptions) you came to on the basis of it, then you very definitely were wrong doing so.

Please explain why I was wrong to draw the conclusions I did after reading comments like "detained after serious serious deficiencies were found" and "the vessel had not been maintained between surveys".

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#539972 1-Nov-2011 16:51

Sorry to drag the thread back towards topic...
But this morning's NZ Herald article about the Qantas dispute had quote fron Alan Joyce (Qantas CEO) claiming his hourly rate was less than A380 Captains. He doesn't spell out his calculations but I believe they are something like this;
A380 Captains earn $450,000/year and do direct flight hours of (say) 700 so are paid $642/hr,
He earns $5million/year and there are 8760 hours in a year so he only earns $570/hr.

What the logic doesn't take into account is there are extra pilot work hours besides sitting at the controls, including briefings, simulator training and ground courses, for which a Captain is responsible. And besides this would also mean that Mr Joyce doesn't eat, sleep, take a dump or drive to work. Even if he only took Christmas Day and his birthday off and worked 20 hours a day for all the rest, his hourly rate would still be $688/hr!

It reminds me of a similar line in the Ansett New Zealand dispute last century where Paul Holmes (broadcaster) claimed that pilots only worked 15 hours a week and were paid $150000 a year. Once again direct flight hours only, and on times of about 45 minutes per flight (and the top pay rate). Using the same criterion, at the time his current affairs program was 30 minutes monday to friday. Take out ads and articles by his reporters and he was on for a maximum of 15 minutes a night (1.25 hrs/week) and got paid (a reported) $750,000/year.

Shame on the Herald for repeating Joyce's tripe without picking up a calculator. Still the politics of envy at work.

Edit: removed a comment.

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#540118 1-Nov-2011 22:41

DingBat

In a war the first casualty is the truth, it's no different here.

On another site I go to sometimes there have been comments in the recent past about Alan Joyce's faulty calculator. Looks like it's still faulty.

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John2010

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#540292 2-Nov-2011 12:28

Technofreak:
John2010: And yes, if you had have had the list and come to the "conclusions" (but more correctly assumptions) you came to on the basis of it, then you very definitely were wrong doing so.

Please explain why I was wrong to draw the conclusions I did after reading comments like "detained after serious serious deficiencies were found" and "the vessel had not been maintained between surveys".

In the interests of avoiding this meandering off topic and my wasting time arguing with someone who fankly does not know what they are talking about I will not bother - let's just say that you are the expert in maritime matters it seems and leave it at that.

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#540294 2-Nov-2011 12:32

Seems theres a lot of politics in this whole issue. It appears the leader of the opposition (in Oz) was aware of the action Qantas would take, a week before it happened, but the PM (and govt) weren't.

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#540296 2-Nov-2011 12:35

Dingbatt: Sorry to drag the thread back towards topic...
But this morning's NZ Herald article about the Qantas dispute had quote fron Alan Joyce (Qantas CEO) claiming his hourly rate was less than A380 Captains. He doesn't spell out his calculations but I believe they are something like this;
A380 Captains earn $450,000/year and do direct flight hours of (say) 700 so are paid $642/hr,
He earns $5million/year and there are 8760 hours in a year so he only earns $570/hr.

What the logic doesn't take into account is there are extra pilot work hours besides sitting at the controls, including briefings, simulator training and ground courses, for which a Captain is responsible. And besides this would also mean that Mr Joyce doesn't eat, sleep, take a dump or drive to work. Even if he only took Christmas Day and his birthday off and worked 20 hours a day for all the rest, his hourly rate would still be $688/hr!

It reminds me of a similar line in the Ansett New Zealand dispute last century where Paul Holmes (broadcaster) claimed that pilots only worked 15 hours a week and were paid $150000 a year. Once again direct flight hours only, and on times of about 45 minutes per flight (and the top pay rate). Using the same criterion, at the time his current affairs program was 30 minutes monday to friday. Take out ads and articles by his reporters and he was on for a maximum of 15 minutes a night (1.25 hrs/week) and got paid (a reported) $750,000/year.

Shame on the Herald for repeating Joyce's tripe without picking up a calculator. Still the politics of envy at work.

Edit: removed a comment.

Well to be fair, a pilot is responsible for 1 plane and 1 crew and 1 set of passengers at a time, Alan Joyce is responsible for all of them, and everything else as well. I think 5M is a lot, but in terms of responsibility I think he is responsible for 10 times as much stuff, for many more hours a day.

Personally I think with the exception of the choice to ground the planes, to stop industrial action, something I am not even certain he was responsible for (as opposed to the executive board), he has been a terrible CEO in my oinion. Under his "leadership" Q has had more than the normal number of maintenance issues, more staff dishormony, and the Q brand has been devalued significantly. Earnings are also down. Hardly inspiring from a guy now earning $5m a year.

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#540300 2-Nov-2011 12:45

networkn:
Well to be fair, a pilot is responsible for 1 plane and 1 crew and 1 set of passengers at a time, Alan Joyce is responsible for all of them, and everything else as well. I think 5M is a lot, but in terms of responsibility....

Thats a whole new debate.. What price responsibility?

Did Joyce take responsibility for shutting the airline down (and the millions of lost revenue there), or did he try and shift the reasoning over to the unions???

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