Citizen's Initiated Referendum - transparent return envelopes and general discussion

Forums › Off topic › Citizen's Initiated Referendum - transparent return envelopes and general discussion

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#940630 25-Nov-2013 20:26

Geektastic: I would only ever vote to keep a left wing candidate from being elected

You are part of the reason why giving a government power doesn't mean endorsement of their policies.

The Australian public just did this en masse. "We don't like Labor so we'll vote for the other guy. We actually don't like his policies at all. BUT WE CAN'T HAVE LABOR BECAUSE.....LABOR"

Now many of them are going "oops" (based on today's poll - huge swing giving Labor majority with preferences)

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sbaird

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#940665 25-Nov-2013 21:04

scuwp:
jnawk:
scuwp:
KiwiNZ:
I believe that the referendums should be binding

So you want to leave NZ's future to a bunch of people who largely may:

Not be qualified in the topic matter
Have no experience or exposure to the topic matter
Are irrationally swayed by public opinion, media images and messaging

Hmmm...interesting concept. Isn't that like asking a 5 year old what they think of middle eastern politics?

Not saying I disagree totally, just depends on the topic.

Way to misconstrue the point - CIRs need 10% support before they even happen. The "bunch" of people you mention are quite a large "bunch". Not as if just any old topic gets 10%+ of the voting population riled up enough to sign a petition about it.

Also, you seem to assume politicians are:

Qualified in the topic matter
Have experience or exposure to the topic matter
Aren't irrationally swayed by public opinion, media images and messaging
Isn't that a little optimistic?

Politicians recognise they are not subject matter experts on many things. Thats why they employ advisors, we have people like Treasury, and they use outside consultants and researchers to give them the information they need to make objective INFORMED choices. A referendum is nothing more than popular opinion based on subjective reasoning largely (I am sure there are many individual exceptions). Great if you want to get public feedback on social issues or such like where this information can be used to add to the decision making process, bad where you want to make highly technical economic decisions.

I thought that treasure recommended not to sell the assets?

k1wi

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#940682 25-Nov-2013 21:06

At this point I see 0 opinions changed...

Geektastic

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#940732 25-Nov-2013 22:30

KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
floydbloke:
richms:

Not really, because it puts actual decision making abilities into the hands of people who are not equipped to make those decisions.

Winston Churchill:

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Agreed and as I have said before, voting ought to require a licence which you get after passing a test to demonstrate you are not an idiot.

Nonsense

You'll need to do better than that to explain why the congenitally stupid should vote, I am afraid.

I am not going to waste my bandwidth on this nonsense with you

So we can assume from that that you are more than happy for the opinions of drug-addled morons, the congenitally stupid, the criminally-minded and so on to have equal sway in what happens to you, your family, your money and your country. Extraordinarily generous of you, if misguided.

1. Read the electoral acts and learn who can vote.
2. Read some material about what a democracy means.

Democracy is, according to my Oxford Dictionary, "a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives"

The key part is "or all the eligible members".

I maintain that we need a test in order to demonstrate eligibility and a definition of eligibility that states you must pass said test.

It's well within the definition of democracy to exclude the unintelligent in a country which already has other exclusions and has therefore accepted as the status quo that not all people can vote.

teamyoyo

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#940758 25-Nov-2013 23:51

Democracy is, according to my Oxford Dictionary, "a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives"

The key part is "or all the eligible members".

I maintain that we need a test in order to demonstrate eligibility and a definition of eligibility that states you must pass said test.

It's well within the definition of democracy to exclude the unintelligent in a country which already has other exclusions and has therefore accepted as the status quo that not all people can vote.

The problem with having a test for eligibility to vote is that most politicians would never pass it.

Wait a second. . . that might not be a problem.

MikeB4

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#940778 26-Nov-2013 07:03

Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
floydbloke:
richms:

Not really, because it puts actual decision making abilities into the hands of people who are not equipped to make those decisions.

Winston Churchill:

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Agreed and as I have said before, voting ought to require a licence which you get after passing a test to demonstrate you are not an idiot.

Nonsense

You'll need to do better than that to explain why the congenitally stupid should vote, I am afraid.

I am not going to waste my bandwidth on this nonsense with you

So we can assume from that that you are more than happy for the opinions of drug-addled morons, the congenitally stupid, the criminally-minded and so on to have equal sway in what happens to you, your family, your money and your country. Extraordinarily generous of you, if misguided.

1. Read the electoral acts and learn who can vote.
2. Read some material about what a democracy means.

Democracy is, according to my Oxford Dictionary, "a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives"

The key part is "or all the eligible members".

I maintain that we need a test in order to demonstrate eligibility and a definition of eligibility that states you must pass said test.

It's well within the definition of democracy to exclude the unintelligent in a country which already has other exclusions and has therefore accepted as the status quo that not all people can vote.

Thankfully NZ does not have an electoral system based on discrimination .

JimmyH

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#941213 26-Nov-2013 18:52

KiwiNZ:

Thankfully NZ does not have an electoral system based on discrimination .

Ummm.... yes it does.

Groups of people are excluded from voting. Those under 18, those in prison, those who don't meet specified residency criteria, those certified under mental health provisions......

Not so long ago, you couldn't vote in local body elections unless you owned property in a certain area.

I don't have a problem with any of this. But it's wrong to say that groups living in the country aren't excluded from voting because of their characteristics. In principle, adding an intelligence test (or similar) wouldn't be that different.

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andrewNZ

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#941247 26-Nov-2013 20:14

Thought I'd reply to the topic (I have no interest in the current discussion).

The opportunity for anyone to actually to fiddle results, with the number of people around during processing, and the cameras from butt-hole to breakfast, is tiny at worst. Everything else is inside your control.

The process: Mail is cleared from the street receivers (boxes) by courier, and they're only interested in getting the job done as fast as possible. Then the mail is tipped from it's bag onto a belt. After that-

Then it's put in a tray and sent direct to the electoral office.

andrewNZ

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#941609 27-Nov-2013 10:59

Video above is broken somehow :-(

here's the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pULtQPrum9Q

ajobbins

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#941748 27-Nov-2013 14:08

My voting form (and what I selected) was easily visible in the envelope just by holding it up to the natural light in my house. Could clearly see what I ticked without even holding it to a light.

However, with the voting form folded in half, I couldn't make out anything on the form, even when held directly to a light.

So if you're worried about privacy, just fold your form in half

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Klipspringer

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#941761 27-Nov-2013 14:21

Geektastic:

Democracy is, according to my Oxford Dictionary, "a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives"

The key part is "or all the eligible members".

I maintain that we need a test in order to demonstrate eligibility and a definition of eligibility that states you must pass said test.

It's well within the definition of democracy to exclude the unintelligent in a country which already has other exclusions and has therefore accepted as the status quo that not all people can vote.

And as long as New Zealand has the Maori seats in Parliament we will never be a democracy. Maori MP's are not put in Parliment by the people of NZ but rather because they "Maori"

/end of rant

MikeB4

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#941764 27-Nov-2013 14:27

Klipspringer:
Geektastic:

Democracy is, according to my Oxford Dictionary, "a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives"

The key part is "or all the eligible members".

I maintain that we need a test in order to demonstrate eligibility and a definition of eligibility that states you must pass said test.

It's well within the definition of democracy to exclude the unintelligent in a country which already has other exclusions and has therefore accepted as the status quo that not all people can vote.

And as long as New Zealand has the Maori seats in Parliament we will never be a democracy. Maori MP's are not put in Parliment by the people of NZ but rather because they "Maori"

/end of rant

There are many Maori MPs, I am sure all of them have been put in Parliament by New Zealanders. But this is way off topic and should be taken elsewhere I would think

jnawk

176 posts

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#941779 27-Nov-2013 15:01

ajobbins: My voting form (and what I selected) was easily visible in the envelope just by holding it up to the natural light in my house. Could clearly see what I ticked without even holding it to a light.

However, with the voting form folded in half, I couldn't make out anything on the form, even when held directly to a light.

So if you're worried about privacy, just fold your form in half

The electoral commission suggested the same, with regards to privacy, and even went so far as to suggest there is nothing personally identifiable on the form. The problem is, if you are concerned, but don't have the foresight to fold the ballot - after all, it fits in the envelope provided, then once you've sealed the envelope, it's too late. There is no mention of the transparency of the envelope on any of the forms that come with the ballot, (is there?)

My concern isn't one of my personal privacy, but rather the risk (however slight) of corruption, when it could be easily overcome simply by using envelopes that aren't quite so transparent.

1080p

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#945780 4-Dec-2013 23:49

jnawk:
ajobbins: My voting form (and what I selected) was easily visible in the envelope just by holding it up to the natural light in my house. Could clearly see what I ticked without even holding it to a light.

However, with the voting form folded in half, I couldn't make out anything on the form, even when held directly to a light.

So if you're worried about privacy, just fold your form in half

The electoral commission suggested the same, with regards to privacy, and even went so far as to suggest there is nothing personally identifiable on the form. The problem is, if you are concerned, but don't have the foresight to fold the ballot - after all, it fits in the envelope provided, then once you've sealed the envelope, it's too late. There is no mention of the transparency of the envelope on any of the forms that come with the ballot, (is there?)

My concern isn't one of my personal privacy, but rather the risk (however slight) of corruption, when it could be easily overcome simply by using envelopes that aren't quite so transparent.

I wonder how many human hands deal with mail once it is in the box. My imagination says not many, if any.

From the box to the van it is in a sack with a ton of other mail and a driver always in a hurry.

From the van it is dumped into large sorting bins and automatically sorted by a machine with limited human intervention (especially with printed labels).

From the sorting bins is is packed into trucks in bulk by people in a hurry and under supervision and deposited directly into the industrial electoral PO box.

Even if someone wanted to tamper with a vote they would find it incredibly difficult. But I suppose wasting many more millions of public money on thicker paper would further reduce this blatant assault on our democracy.

andrewNZ

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#945813 5-Dec-2013 06:16

Pretty much (as per my previous post).

Machines sort 99% of printed mail and about 75% of hand written mail (they'll read things people struggle to read, but I'm yet to write an address the machine can read...), and they process roughly 10 items a second.

Id suggest the chance of someone tampering with the result at post is equal to someone tampering at the electrol office who actually open them.

For the OP's peace of mind, we even find loose ones, we bag them up and send them too.

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