Changing of our flag , Yes or No.

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#1309434 21-May-2015 17:59

Rikkitic:
Handsomedan:
Geektastic:
MikeB4:
Geektastic:
cyberhub:
MikeB4: I have not decided yet, it is good that the issue is being discussed and the opportunity to contribute to the decision. Two options I do like are ...

I am not too concerned about the flag but I have to say that I do like this one.

I don't really get the obsession with a random and somewhat dull piece of vegetation....

I don't really understand why it should be such a mystery, many Nations have plants as symbols. EG Canada has a Maple leaf, England a Rose, Scotland a Thistle, Wales a Leek and Ireland a Clover to name a few.

Just because many people identify with bits of vegetation is no reason for me to understand why.

I actually really like that design.

It covers many things...the black background with silver fern for the "traditionalists" with the blue and the stars for the nod to the old flag.

You could replace the fern with a Koru, but I think the design as it is looks great...and I don;t think you need to understand anything about why people like vegetation on flags. It's just a cool design.

Personally, I wouldn't go to the Olympics or the World Cup or a big bus trip around Europe carrying a NZ flag as it stands...but I have done all of those things with a Silver Fern. Go figure.

I agree. I would vote for this one if I had to vote for something. To my mind the black symbolises the night sky (with the Southern Cross) and the blue the oceans that surround us. What could be more Kiwi?

A kiwi. Silver fern is totally NZ, but I see the kiwi as the biggest and most well known icon internationally. Can have both though

mattwnz

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#1309446 21-May-2015 18:15

A fern doesn't need to be so literal as the silver ferm. The problem is that the silver fern is complex and not recognizable by those overseas anyway. Many people thing that it is bones.

There are a few really nice designs on the public suggestions website. A pity you can't vote for them on it.

NZSpides

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#1309617 22-May-2015 02:39

I think the current flag is fine.

But if you have to change it, I for one want no sign of a Koru or a fern on the thing. I also don't want the predominant colour to be black.
Sure the Kiwi may be a childish design, but lets face it, most of the world knows where a Kiwi comes from.

As for the national anthem, I thought it was a little outdated when I was in school, 30 years later now I feel it's outmoded.
There is far to much reference to religion, which I have never felt comfortable with, especially being non religious (like most of NZ).
And then there's the Maori version, I refuse to learn that.
I was forced to learn the current national anthem, but the Maori version is meaningless to me.

I spent more than a decade in the military, the flag and the implied sovereignty is important to the military history, but didn't play an everyday role that I saw.

I respect the history that the flag represents and what it stands for.
I think a new flag would just make another point for people to disagree over, and I also think people don't realise the actual implied costs of changing the flag design would be, $25M would be nothing.

jeffnz

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#1309649 22-May-2015 08:02

Some of the suggested flags are very 'busy' with too much on them, sure everyone wants to have their little bit on them but when you look at the likes of the Canadian flag its simplistic, unmistakable and you don't need to try and read it like a book.

I don't believe it needs to be immediately recognisable people will learn what it is and the fern or koru are both very good, the kiwi is a bit cartoon like but most know of it. The black I have no problem with as it is a power colour, I don't associate it with ISIS or pirates.

Americans would be more patriotic to their flag than we and can say that they fought for their flag as to them it is a symbol of who they are and where they came from, ours shows a a past we have moved on from 30-40 years ago in an effort to be come a country in our own right. People mainly don't like change and get emotionally attached to things they think symbolize who they are but we all need to look to the future and where we can be not back to a past and need a flag that recognizes us for who we are not for the country that no longer does anything for us.

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#1309670 22-May-2015 08:50

jeffnz: Some of the suggested flags are very 'busy' with too much on them, sure everyone wants to have their little bit on them but when you look at the likes of the Canadian flag its simplistic, unmistakable and you don't need to try and read it like a book.

I don't believe it needs to be immediately recognisable people will learn what it is and the fern or koru are both very good, the kiwi is a bit cartoon like but most know of it. The black I have no problem with as it is a power colour, I don't associate it with ISIS or pirates.

Americans would be more patriotic to their flag than we and can say that they fought for their flag as to them it is a symbol of who they are and where they came from, ours shows a a past we have moved on from 30-40 years ago in an effort to be come a country in our own right. People mainly don't like change and get emotionally attached to things they think symbolize who they are but we all need to look to the future and where we can be not back to a past and need a flag that recognizes us for who we are not for the country that no longer does anything for us.

Yep, look at the ruckus the changing of Sparks Logo caused :)

jeffnz

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#1309673 22-May-2015 08:56

MikeB4:
jeffnz: Some of the suggested flags are very 'busy' with too much on them, sure everyone wants to have their little bit on them but when you look at the likes of the Canadian flag its simplistic, unmistakable and you don't need to try and read it like a book.

I don't believe it needs to be immediately recognisable people will learn what it is and the fern or koru are both very good, the kiwi is a bit cartoon like but most know of it. The black I have no problem with as it is a power colour, I don't associate it with ISIS or pirates.

Americans would be more patriotic to their flag than we and can say that they fought for their flag as to them it is a symbol of who they are and where they came from, ours shows a a past we have moved on from 30-40 years ago in an effort to be come a country in our own right. People mainly don't like change and get emotionally attached to things they think symbolize who they are but we all need to look to the future and where we can be not back to a past and need a flag that recognizes us for who we are not for the country that no longer does anything for us.

Yep, look at the ruckus the changing of Sparks Logo caused :)

and the frustrating thing is that if we change the majority will identify and support it. Some people can't see passed the now or don't want to.

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Fred99

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#1309677 22-May-2015 09:13

I don't mind the koru as a concept.
But the problem as I see it is that whatever is chosen, it needs to be able to stand the test of time.
Huntertwasser's 1983 koru flag looks to me as if it was already out of date by a decade when he drew it. It looks like a nice pattern for a hippie kaftan.
What did people thing about it then - was the design considered to be timeless and symbolic by anybody?

Anyway, this flag debate is academic/hypothetical. It's not going to happen when the majority are against it. I don't understand why that is - just guessing that it's a combination of the effectiveness of opposition criticising the cost, and the very successful PR campaign which has been run by "the firm" back in "mother" England to restore popularity of the royals amongst the commoners - probably never intended to impact on NZ, but it has anyway. They know what's coming soon (several decades of King Charles) and what the likely impact of that will be. so are desperate to get a head start.
As for the sentiment about WWI centenary and the slow transformation of Anzac Day from a time of sombre remembrance "lest we forget" into a grand flag-flying holiday party, I suspect my grandfathers who fought and were both almost killed in that war (yet managed to spend the rest of their lives never mentioning it) would be very happy to see the Union Jack disappear from our national flag.

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Klathman

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#1309683 22-May-2015 09:25

jeffnz:
Americans would be more patriotic to their flag than we and can say that they fought for their flag as to them it is a symbol of who they are and where they came from, ours shows a a past we have moved on from 30-40 years ago in an effort to be come a country in our own right. People mainly don't like change and get emotionally attached to things they think symbolize who they are but we all need to look to the future and where we can be not back to a past and need a flag that recognizes us for who we are not for the country that no longer does anything for us.

The interesting thing with the US is that they've actually had I think 39 flags. The current one has only been in use since 1960. I would imagine that they respect all versions of their flag whether they were used in battle or not. The older ones just wouldn't be used any longer unless for some historical significance.

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#1309705 22-May-2015 10:00

Spuds?

mattwnz

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#1309719 22-May-2015 10:30

MikeB4:
jeffnz: Some of the suggested flags are very 'busy' with too much on them, sure everyone wants to have their little bit on them but when you look at the likes of the Canadian flag its simplistic, unmistakable and you don't need to try and read it like a book.

I don't believe it needs to be immediately recognisable people will learn what it is and the fern or koru are both very good, the kiwi is a bit cartoon like but most know of it. The black I have no problem with as it is a power colour, I don't associate it with ISIS or pirates.

Americans would be more patriotic to their flag than we and can say that they fought for their flag as to them it is a symbol of who they are and where they came from, ours shows a a past we have moved on from 30-40 years ago in an effort to be come a country in our own right. People mainly don't like change and get emotionally attached to things they think symbolize who they are but we all need to look to the future and where we can be not back to a past and need a flag that recognizes us for who we are not for the country that no longer does anything for us.

Yep, look at the ruckus the changing of Sparks Logo caused :)

The person who designed that, which is essentially just a squiggle and will date, will have earnt a lot more than the designer of the nz flag will get. The designer of the nz flag will get no consideration / earnings at all for their design. But I guess they get the kudos to say that they designed the nz flag. Wish I was on that special panel as they get paid nearly 1000 dollars a day. Somewhat ironic that everyone earns money out off out apart from the person who did the hard work and actually designs the new flag

Dratsab

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#1310322 23-May-2015 10:06

Rikkitic:
Handsomedan:
Geektastic:
MikeB4:
Geektastic:
cyberhub:
MikeB4: I have not decided yet, it is good that the issue is being discussed and the opportunity to contribute to the decision. Two options I do like are ...

I am not too concerned about the flag but I have to say that I do like this one.

I don't really get the obsession with a random and somewhat dull piece of vegetation....

I don't really understand why it should be such a mystery, many Nations have plants as symbols. EG Canada has a Maple leaf, England a Rose, Scotland a Thistle, Wales a Leek and Ireland a Clover to name a few.

Just because many people identify with bits of vegetation is no reason for me to understand why.

I actually really like that design.

It covers many things...the black background with silver fern for the "traditionalists" with the blue and the stars for the nod to the old flag.

You could replace the fern with a Koru, but I think the design as it is looks great...and I don;t think you need to understand anything about why people like vegetation on flags. It's just a cool design.

Personally, I wouldn't go to the Olympics or the World Cup or a big bus trip around Europe carrying a NZ flag as it stands...but I have done all of those things with a Silver Fern. Go figure.

I agree. I would vote for this one if I had to vote for something. To my mind the black symbolises the night sky (with the Southern Cross) and the blue the oceans that surround us. What could be more Kiwi?

I'd prefer something like this. The blue represents both our skies and the water. The green our land, the fern one of our national symbols, the stars speak for themselves.

Geektastic

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#1310333 23-May-2015 10:36

Just use the Fonterra logo.

roobarb

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#1310355 23-May-2015 11:35

MikeB4: Yep, look at the ruckus the changing of Sparks Logo caused :)

If you want a real mess, look at another pointless political diversion that raised passion and caused division - the recent Scottish referendum on devolution.

In comparison it looks like the flag debate here could collapse through apathy.

tdgeek

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#1310361 23-May-2015 11:44

Dratsab:
Rikkitic:
Handsomedan:
Geektastic:
MikeB4:
Geektastic:
cyberhub:
MikeB4: I have not decided yet, it is good that the issue is being discussed and the opportunity to contribute to the decision. Two options I do like are ...

I am not too concerned about the flag but I have to say that I do like this one.

I don't really get the obsession with a random and somewhat dull piece of vegetation....

I don't really understand why it should be such a mystery, many Nations have plants as symbols. EG Canada has a Maple leaf, England a Rose, Scotland a Thistle, Wales a Leek and Ireland a Clover to name a few.

Just because many people identify with bits of vegetation is no reason for me to understand why.

I actually really like that design.

It covers many things...the black background with silver fern for the "traditionalists" with the blue and the stars for the nod to the old flag.

You could replace the fern with a Koru, but I think the design as it is looks great...and I don;t think you need to understand anything about why people like vegetation on flags. It's just a cool design.

Personally, I wouldn't go to the Olympics or the World Cup or a big bus trip around Europe carrying a NZ flag as it stands...but I have done all of those things with a Silver Fern. Go figure.

I agree. I would vote for this one if I had to vote for something. To my mind the black symbolises the night sky (with the Southern Cross) and the blue the oceans that surround us. What could be more Kiwi?

I'd prefer something like this. The blue represents both our skies and the water. The green our land, the fern one of our national symbols, the stars speak for themselves.

I doubt the stars speak for themselves. Id love to know how many kiwis see them as the Southern Cross. To many, I'd say 50% of us think they are stars, 99% of foreigners see them as stars. I'd like a white kiwi there. A modern, low detail one. 99% of foreigners who have heard of NZ, will know that its a NZ flag.

SJB

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#1310413 23-May-2015 14:35

Most of the world don't know what a kiwi looks like. The majority would think we had a chicken on our flag.

As for the fern they grow all over the world so can hardly be claimed as a national icon. It's just a sports marketing tool.

If the flag is to be changed, which I don't think the cost justifies, go for an abstract design.

It should wait until we become a republic.

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