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# 138107 19-Dec-2013 22:37
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*Facepalm*

"The United States did not fight the measure after it engaged in lobbying with Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, which comprise the "Five Eyes" intelligence-sharing group, to dilute some of the original draft resolution's language. The key compromise dropped the contention that the domestic and international interception and collection of communications and personal data, "in particular massive surveillance," may constitute a human rights violation. The resolution instead expresses deep concern at "the negative impact" that such surveillance, "in particular when carried out on a mass scale, may have on the exercise and enjoyment of human rights."






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gzt

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  # 955182 19-Dec-2013 23:09
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Your link is dead but The Herald has an almost identical quote:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11175161.

I agree it's a significant change in wording. Therefore if mass surveillance does not have an impact on human rights - then you have nothing to fear. ; ). It passed unanimously so even we must have voted for that one.

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  # 955215 20-Dec-2013 07:12
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The current state of government is incredible. The amount of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt governments plant in citizen's all over the world to try and retain power is unbelievable.

The thing is... A few years ago people who shouted this was a happening thing would be labelled as paranoid, schizophrenic.

I fear the children of today will live in a dystopian environment in less than a decade. All because some greedy bastards think it's ok to breakdown society to rebuild it with something worse.

The Guardian had a piece yesterday pointing out the war in Afghanistan is now going for 12 years. This is twice as long as the WWII.

The thing is... The party that was running the show a few years ago is the one who created the foundations for the party running the show today. Swapping parties won't necessarily won't change things for better.





 
 
 
 


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  # 955216 20-Dec-2013 07:15
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Mass surveillance is required if a world government is to be effective. The UN doesn't want to shoot its own Agenda (21) in the foot by not being able to carry out 'good' surveillance.




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  # 955217 20-Dec-2013 07:20
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ok you are all scaring me I'm going to bulk buy some tin foil hats :)

oops spelling




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  # 955219 20-Dec-2013 07:25
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You wouldn't need a tin foil hat, unless you aren't seeing things happening around.

Mass surveillance is a bad thing for any society. Fear as a means of manipulation is bad.

The argument of "if you have not doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear" is wrong because individuals don't know the whims of those in power. Governments fall, laws change in the backroom during midnight sessions and when you wake up next morning whatever you have done the previous day could now be a horrible crime.





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  # 955220 20-Dec-2013 07:30
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I see the fear, uncertainty and dread spread by the anti surveillance groups as being as bad as that spread by the pro groups.




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  # 955222 20-Dec-2013 07:33
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So what's the solution in your opinion? Let them do it just because they are in power?

In your opinion citizens should accept anything a government pushes as policy without complaining just because someone says on TV "you wouldn't understand the reason so we aren't telling you why we're doing it?"





 
 
 
 


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  # 955223 20-Dec-2013 07:36
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Sensible open discussion from both camps would be a good start.




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Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 955225 20-Dec-2013 07:39
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Sensible discussion would involve both camps knowing what's going on. I think newspapers suchs a New York times and The Guardian are doing a good work on this front, but in New Zealand there aren't any mainstream produced media investigating this really.

So citizens need to bring these happening to view.

When someone posts a link to a reporting on such activities and invite someone else's opinion it's making the basis to create a group that knows and understands what's going on.

Without knowing it there's no much "sensible discussion".




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  # 955236 20-Dec-2013 07:44
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That is why I wrote the sensible open discussion from both camps would be a good start. And not the 1984 current cover up and the emotive hype up we are currently getting dished up. Both camps are guilty of FUD which turns the discussion into a farce.




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Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 955241 20-Dec-2013 07:51
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KiwiNZ: I see the fear, uncertainty and dread spread by the anti surveillance groups as being as bad as that spread by the pro groups.


have to agree with this and dislike the way people dismiss others opinion as being wrong when theirs could be as well. 

I don't understand the reaction to be honest as this isn't a surprise, is it?, spying on people has been going on since the beginning of time, not as intrusive but still spying. Being we all have a survival instinct and any country worth a dam  protects its patch as we all do  on a daily basis so being ahead of the "threat!" would be seen as normal.

I think I would be more worried if I was living in a country where we didn't have the right to free speech or governments that wanted to take away my rights to decide what I do with my life.

Having said all that I'm glad their are watchdogs to ensure it doesn't get out of hand as it will only get worse given the way electronic devices are a major part of out lives.






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  # 955249 20-Dec-2013 08:17
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gzt: Your link is dead but The Herald has an almost identical quote:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11175161.

I agree it's a significant change in wording. Therefore if mass surveillance does not have an impact on human rights - then you have nothing to fear. ; ). It passed unanimously so even we must have voted for that one.


Thanks! The Herald story is pretty much word-for-word what was on the link I had. I've changed my link to point to the Herald story.  

It's pretty bad when the self-styled champions of freedom and democracy in the West are actually those pushing for the most aggressive invasion of privacy....and our country is one of them.   




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  # 955252 20-Dec-2013 08:26
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freitasm:

The thing is... The party that was running the show a few years ago is the one who created the foundations for the party running the show today. Swapping parties won't necessarily won't change things for better.



This is true in Canada, the UK and Australia.....but NZ has the Green Party who WILL do things differently - and better - if given the numbers to make it so. Greens tend to be curious people who pay attention....which is why they are so often out of step with the less curious who prefer to ignore so much around them. 

It's becoming something of a rule that you can either let the Green Party do it today...or wait for a major party to do it in 20 years when it's become an emergency. Climate change is just one example. Public transport would be another. 

I think this issue of spies and those in government colluding to break our own laws - for a foreign government(!!!) -  and violate our privacy in any case is the most serious threat to our democracy and freedom we face. Terrorists can't harm that in any meaningful way.....but our own people can destroy it in a handful of years....and appear to be busy doing just that.

 





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  # 955265 20-Dec-2013 08:29
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KiwiNZ: Sensible open discussion from both camps would be a good start.


It would.....though we might have to define "sensible", "open" and what the "camps" are. 




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  # 955267 20-Dec-2013 08:31
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KiwiNZ: That is why I wrote the sensible open discussion from both camps would be a good start. And not the 1984 current cover up and the emotive hype up we are currently getting dished up. Both camps are guilty of FUD which turns the discussion into a farce.


The "emotive hype-up" is the natural response of the powerless to the prospect of the powerful doing wrong with both impunity and arrogant disregard for others. 

If that doesn't get you emotional....then you may need counselling. :)  




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