My first thoughts? - Bury him (or at least throw the keys away)

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DaveB

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#198052 23-Jun-2016 21:53

An Auckland man has been dragged from court screaming during his sentencing for distributing Islamic State propaganda videos.

In May he pleaded guilty to possessing, making and distributing videos containing beheadings, executions, immolation and mutilation and the sentence makes him the first person in the country to be handed a punishment for possessing footage of extreme violence. He could be heard angrily screaming from the cells for some time afterwards.

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What's next? Will this become commonplace in NZ? What do we do to stop this cancerous infection from spreading?

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#1579275 23-Jun-2016 22:01

Btw all and sundry note his activities were reported by average Kiwi Muslims so try not to rant senseless ranting please have a think thank you.

MikeB4

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#1579276 23-Jun-2016 22:05

The court has dealt with it and I assume inline with New Zealand law

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

dejadeadnz

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#1579280 23-Jun-2016 22:25

DaveB:

An Auckland man has been dragged from court screaming during his sentencing for distributing Islamic State propaganda videos.

In May he pleaded guilty to possessing, making and distributing videos containing beheadings, executions, immolation and mutilation and the sentence makes him the first person in the country to be handed a punishment for possessing footage of extreme violence. He could be heard angrily screaming from the cells for some time afterwards.

More here

What's next? Will this become commonplace in NZ? What do we do to stop this cancerous infection from spreading?

Why would anyone assume this kind of thing to be likely to become commonplace? It's the first conviction for this kind of offending. And lots of offenders mouth off at sentencing -- I've seen this many times and have lawyered for all 3 sides of the criminal justice fence. Whether the guy was shouting "Allhu Akbar" or dropping F-bombs at the judge, at the end of the day this is just one idiot. And frankly wanting a life sentence or worse for this kind of offending is a pretty extreme reaction. He might have views that are not in comport with modernity or at least tenets of a liberal democracy but once he's served his sentence, he's entitled to hold or express whatever stupid views he cares to have, so long as it's done in line with the law.

Rikkitic

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#1579290 23-Jun-2016 22:49

DaveB:

An Auckland man has been dragged from court screaming during his sentencing for distributing Islamic State propaganda videos.

In May he pleaded guilty to possessing, making and distributing videos containing beheadings, executions, immolation and mutilation and the sentence makes him the first person in the country to be handed a punishment for possessing footage of extreme violence. He could be heard angrily screaming from the cells for some time afterwards.

More here

What's next? Will this become commonplace in NZ? What do we do to stop this cancerous infection from spreading?

One thing we do is spend the four years of this man’s sentence trying to understand as much as possible about his path to radicalisation while striving to help him understand why hurting people is not a path to salvation. Instead of beating him with rubber hoses the entire time, for our own sakes we need to pull out all the stops to make him part of our community again when he is released back into it.

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turnin

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#1579291 23-Jun-2016 22:50

When you kill a million + people for something they questionably didn't do, you breed extreme hatred, that hatred becomes an ideology, it grows like bacteria.

Its a big problem but it can only survive in an environment that supports it.

The worst thing is if he influences easily influenced people (like in jail)

One day someone might critically question the root cause of all these extremist behaviours but I'm not holding my breath

Geektastic

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#1579306 24-Jun-2016 00:11

We should make religion a recognised mental illness.

It really is high time in the 21st century that people stopped trying to please a variety of imaginary constructs. The sheer levels of mental and physical energy wasted on religion that could be better used in other ways is mind boggling.

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PhantomNVD

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#1579308 24-Jun-2016 00:18

Geektastic:

We should make religion a recognised mental illness.

It really is high time in the 21st century that people stopped trying to please a variety of imaginary constructs. The sheer levels of mental and physical energy wasted on religion that could be better used in other ways is mind boggling.

Well then we'd ALL be judged mentally ill.

You do realize that Science is a religion too, and theoretical ideas about the 'Big Bang' (something from nothing) are just as ideological as any other religious belief, right?

As it is not a reproducible result [its thus not 'real' Science], and you believe on faith alone..... based on your experiential understanding of the resultant effects...

DaveB

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#1579309 24-Jun-2016 00:18

dejadeadnz:

Why would anyone assume this kind of thing to be likely to become commonplace? It's the first conviction for this kind of offending.

I've seen this many times and have lawyered for all 3 sides of the criminal justice fence. Whether the guy was shouting "Allhu Akbar" or dropping F-bombs at the judge, at the end of the day this is just one idiot. And frankly wanting a life sentence or worse for this kind of offending is a pretty extreme reaction. He might have views that are not in comport with modernity or at least tenets of a liberal democracy but once he's served his sentence, he's entitled to hold or express whatever stupid views he cares to have, so long as it's done in line with the law.

Yep, there's always a first, then second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth etc etc. I'm quite sure the European Human "rights" lawyers said the same thing many years ago. Sadly they still do. How many cases later?

Did I say I want a life sentence?

Sorry if you think I am extreme. I am just being as extreme as he is.

No, no, no. Forget that - I am not sorry. I will not be pulled down to such a level that I feel I have to apologise for extremism just because somebody else thinks I should - especially a lawyer that defends any sort of ISIS extremism or fanatical behaviour.

Sentence to one side (because invariably it does not work), you make the point that a person (idiot or not) is entitled to express whatever stupid views he may have as long as it is done within the law. Even after the penalty of law?

How does a lawyer sit there with a clear conscious knowing that they have been part of defending that process?

What happens when these idiots hold total disregard for the law because the soft penalties fail to teach them a lesson? Their lawyer has reduced the penalty?

What about the poor Jordanian burnt to death in a cage? Or the other numerous atrocities in the middle east? The beheadings and crucifixions of thousands of innocent people?

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with your comments. There is no excuse for this kind of behaviour in NZ and any defence of this sickens me. It needs to be nipped in the bud the moment it rears its ugly head.

dejadeadnz

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#1579314 24-Jun-2016 01:10

DaveB:

Yep, there's always a first, then second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth etc etc. I'm quite sure the European Human "rights" lawyers said the same thing many years ago. Sadly they still do. How many cases later?

Did I say I want a life sentence?

Sorry if you think I am extreme. I am just being as extreme as he is.

No, no, no. Forget that - I am not sorry. I will not be pulled down to such a level that I feel I have to apologise for extremism just because somebody else thinks I should - especially a lawyer that defends any sort of ISIS extremism or fanatical behaviour.

Sentence to one side (because invariably it does not work), you make the point that a person (idiot or not) is entitled to express whatever stupid views he may have as long as it is done within the law. Even after the penalty of law?

How does a lawyer sit there with a clear conscious knowing that they have been part of defending that process?

What happens when these idiots hold total disregard for the law because the soft penalties fail to teach them a lesson? Their lawyer has reduced the penalty?

What about the poor Jordanian burnt to death in a cage? Or the other numerous atrocities in the middle east? The beheadings and crucifixions of thousands of innocent people?

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with your comments. There is no excuse for this kind of behaviour in NZ and any defence of this sickens me. It needs to be nipped in the bud the moment it rears its ugly head.

If you are going to sink to the level of accusing me of defending extremism or fanatical behaviour merely because I have no desire to engage in your hysterical hand-wringing over what is just an isolated event where the perpetrator has been appropriately dealt with, strictly speaking any attempts at debating with you is futile. But I'll charitable grant that everyone is prone to the odd outburst every once in a while (a bit ironic coming from someone all puffed up over someone else's extremist behaviour) and actually seriously engage:

1. Yes, idiots are perfectly entitled to express whatever knuckle-headed views that they might have, even if they were previously criminals, so long as they don't break any laws. When you are in prison, under the Corrections Act (and for obvious reasons like prison security etc), your freedoms are much constrained. However, every person in NZ enjoys certain civil and political rights, including freedom of expression. You show me which part of NZ law -- and the numerous international instruments to which NZ is a party (and ratified into our domestic law) -- allow us to arbitrarily limit people's freedom of expression merely because they have served a prison sentence and then we can have this debate.

2. Lawyers exist to defend and uphold the laws of the land and the social values that underlay them. You think that you or people who think alike should get to arbitrarily limit people's rights and freedoms simply because they have committed a crime AND then had to serve time. I'd say people who arbitrarily ignore our laws and fundamental human rights, especially by base appeals to abstract, thinly defined notions of nipping evil in the bud or whatever, are just as dangerous.

3. And who are "these idiots" in this debate? Who in NZ openly supports ISIS or has committed similar offences? And what makes you think this person's penalty is "soft"? How big a threat are these people? Who qualifications have you got in assessing the level of threat?

And what exactly are these bland but sanctimonious references to violence by ISIS supposed to support? Because it sure isn't making a great case for what you are wanting. By abandoning civil liberties and respect for our own values, we risk showing that such appalling conduct works as a behaviour modifier. And let's play your little game a bit more, shall we? What exactly have you done about foreign policies that give succor and fuel to the extremists' causes; what have you done personally to assist in the integration and acceptance of minority people at risk of radicalisation? You see how one can go on and on?

I once heard the Canadian Chief Justice give a speech about human rights. One of her main points was that governments and people who seek to limit others' freedom or spread paranoia are really great at appealing to some superficially important value or cause and are prone to tell people that unless you do something about it NOW, horrible things will happen. You're giving people exactly the same rubbish. Where's your evidence that NZ is (1) significantly at risk from this kind of extremism/extremist expression and, more importantly (2) that our existing laws and mechanisms are insufficient in addressing such risks so as to justify the kind of arbitrary limitations of people's rights that you're proposing?

MikeB4

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#1579323 24-Jun-2016 06:51

Geektastic:
We should make religion a recognised mental illness.

It really is high time in the 21st century that people stopped trying to please a variety of imaginary constructs. The sheer levels of mental and physical energy wasted on religion that could be better used in other ways is mind boggling.

Each item of intolerance fuels the fire.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Rikkitic

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#1579324 24-Jun-2016 06:52

What he said. I would just add that everything I have seen and heard and experienced in my life convinces me that you don't combat brutality with more brutality. It just doesn't work. Apart from any moral or philosophical arguments, it isn't a practical solution. All it does is breed more angry extremists with nothing to lose. The mere existence of Isis is proof enough of that. Once someone is radicalised, it may (or may not) be too late to turn them back, but the way to prevent new ones is to address the root causes of extremism, such as poverty and injustice. Treat people with a little kindness from the beginning, and extremism won't be able to take root. It is people with nothing left to lose who want to take it away from everyone else.

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#1579326 24-Jun-2016 06:56

Hey, @dejadeadnz -- what's the third side of the fence? Prosecution, defense and ... being a judge?

And for the record: I think the sentences these guys got are perfectly adequate. If you advocate giving up the civil rights, and indeed the humanity our ancestors worked so hard to get, you are conceding defeat to terrorism. Terrorists want you to be afraid. If you are, then by definition, they win. If you try to fight them using their weapons, they win.

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TENKAN

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#1579327 24-Jun-2016 06:59

dejadeadnz could you please start your own topic/rant as it's obvious you are sympathetic to any type of low life which is not what we are discussing.

DaveB and Geektastic i fully agree with both of you but I just can't understand why we need pay out to have the religious fundamentalist types put in prison! We need to ship them straight back from where they came from,because they are a real danger to everyone once they are released from prison.

MikeB4

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#1579330 24-Jun-2016 07:03

TENKAN: dejadeadnz could you please start your own topic/rant as it's obvious you are sympathetic to any type of low life which is not what we are discussing.

DaveB and Geektastic i fully agree with both of you but I just can't understand why we need pay out to have the religious fundamentalist types put in prison! We need to ship them straight back from where they came from,because they are a real danger to everyone once they are released from prison.

Dejadeadnz's posts are not at odds with this thread.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

dickytim

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#1579333 24-Jun-2016 07:30

Is this man an immigrant? If so can he be deported once his sentence finishes?

There is no place in New Zealand for this kind of extreme behaviour, when you enter New Zealand as an immigrant you have a responsibility to fit in with our way of life.

What I really do like in this case is that the Muslim community has stood up and said no, this is not right. - (According to the second post.)

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