UFB 2+ and VDSL Vectoring

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#1857466 3-Sep-2017 09:16

This wouldnt be the first time chorus has upgraded dslams and suddenly made telepermitted modems incompatible.

At a previous job, we were replacing modems around hawkes bay non-stop for a few days when they decided to upgrade some firmware in the dslams and a whole bunch of spark modems were no longer compatible.

Was unfortunately the customers who had to argue our bill with spark, and spark probably couldnt get a refund from chorus.

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#1857735 3-Sep-2017 21:20

They did a VDSL baseplan change last year but did a out fair amount of testing and there was plenty of notice about it too.

DarkShadow

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#1866331 14-Sep-2017 16:07

Chorus whitepaper on vectoring

https://sp.chorus.co.nz/product-update/upgrading-vdsl-vectoring

hio77

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#1866333 14-Sep-2017 16:08

DarkShadow:

Chorus whitepaper on vectoring

https://sp.chorus.co.nz/product-update/upgrading-vdsl-vectoring

Just saw, drop what i'm doing and rejoice!

G.INP also indicated!

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#1866552 14-Sep-2017 22:43

hio77:

DarkShadow:

Chorus whitepaper on vectoring

https://sp.chorus.co.nz/product-update/upgrading-vdsl-vectoring

Just saw, drop what i'm doing and rejoice!

G.INP also indicated!

Definitely G.INP in conjuntion with Vectoring.

Theclaytons

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#1866646 15-Sep-2017 08:36

I wonder what the Christchurch area would be - most of Christchurch has fibre already through enable (or is coming soon). Hoping for Kirwee!

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#1866662 15-Sep-2017 08:58

So would I be right in saying that Chorus will not be forcing people to make sure Vectoring is enabled on their modems, or get a compatible modem if they don't have one? From my understanding of the technology, this would decrease the benefits of it significantly?

Once it's all enabled from Chorus's end, is there a sure fire way to confirm whether it's working or not from looking at a modem?

Looking at the Draytek DV130 for example - the STD firmware it ships with doesn't seem to be compatible, but 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 are - on Draytek's firmware release notes, they recommend 8 for the NBN, but the Oz Draytek site recommends 4 for AU and NZ - both support Vectoring, but use a different Modem Code.

Is Chorus's implementation of Vectoring identical to what's being used for the NBN, or is it slightly different?

Sorry for all the questions haha.

Edit - One other question too - I know Vectoring is only for VDSL, but would the benefits of being able to run VDSL lines at lower power level, which in turn I assume would reduce crosstalk, actually benefit ADSL lines further out on the same cabinet?

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#1866787 15-Sep-2017 11:50

Theclaytons:

I wonder what the Christchurch area would be - most of Christchurch has fibre already through enable (or is coming soon). Hoping for Kirwee!

if you read the information it will apply in non chorus fibre areas and any area not covered by chorus fibre, ie rural areas.

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#1866794 15-Sep-2017 11:59

wratterus:

So would I be right in saying that Chorus will not be forcing people to make sure Vectoring is enabled on their modems, or get a compatible modem if they don't have one? From my understanding of the technology, this would decrease the benefits of it significantly?

Once it's all enabled from Chorus's end, is there a sure fire way to confirm whether it's working or not from looking at a modem?

Looking at the Draytek DV130 for example - the STD firmware it ships with doesn't seem to be compatible, but 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 are - on Draytek's firmware release notes, they recommend 8 for the NBN, but the Oz Draytek site recommends 4 for AU and NZ - both support Vectoring, but use a different Modem Code.

Is Chorus's implementation of Vectoring identical to what's being used for the NBN, or is it slightly different?

Sorry for all the questions haha.

Edit - One other question too - I know Vectoring is only for VDSL, but would the benefits of being able to run VDSL lines at lower power level, which in turn I assume would reduce crosstalk, actually benefit ADSL lines further out on the same cabinet?

if your modem supports vectoring it will be used, i dont know if many modems support the option to turn it on an off.

there are graphs in the white paper that show the difference with different number of crosstalk sources (non vectoring VDSL lines), there is also a nice picture showing the difference between a bundle with all vectored lines and a few alien lines. there are only about 10% of devices out there that dont support vectoring in some form, and i would say they would make up less well than 10% of the total lines out there, and most modems offered by ISP's support it.

I would say being able to see if G.INP is enabled is a good way to see if vectoring is enabled, + you would likely see an increase in speed :)

ADSL and VDSL use different frequencies so i dont think it would have too much affect on ADSL

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#1866967 15-Sep-2017 15:28

BMarquis:

Definitely G.INP in conjuntion with Vectoring.

Feel free to use WAK/C as a testcase ;)

Zero Touch is the interesting bit of all of this, I'm yet to actually come across a paper that explains how the tech actually manages to mitigate the effect of lines that are not vectoring compatible.

The snobby in me who just wants to see VDSL at its best says drop zero touch and just boot all those customers off the network. RSP can provide a working device and all the crappy third party modems can go!

Dreams are free right?

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Jase2985

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#1866975 15-Sep-2017 15:38

hio77:

BMarquis:

Definitely G.INP in conjuntion with Vectoring.

Feel free to use WAK/C as a testcase ;)

Zero Touch is the interesting bit of all of this, I'm yet to actually come across a paper that explains how the tech actually manages to mitigate the effect of lines that are not vectoring compatible.

The snobby in me who just wants to see VDSL at its best says drop zero touch and just boot all those customers off the network. RSP can provide a working device and all the crappy third party modems can go!

Dreams are free right?

being tested in Christchurch i believe

and from reading the white paper there is no way zero touch can mitigate against it, the whole bundles performance just drops. still looks like most lines would get an increase just no where near as good as having the whole bundle on vectoring

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hio77

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#1866984 15-Sep-2017 15:58

Jase2985:

being tested in Christchurch i believe

and from reading the white paper there is no way zero touch can mitigate against it, the whole bundles performance just drops. still looks like most lines would get an increase just no where near as good as having the whole bundle on vectoring

Yes it is, I'm simply poking at Brent there.

Zero touch won't mitigate it all, however it claims to do something for it, chorus's FAQ also echos this.

however; both Nokia AL have not really defined it past all the fluff as far as i have read.....

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BMarquis

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#1867173 16-Sep-2017 07:50

wratterus:

So would I be right in saying that Chorus will not be forcing people to make sure Vectoring is enabled on their modems, or get a compatible modem if they don't have one? From my understanding of the technology, this would decrease the benefits of it significantly?

Thats right, Chorus won't force new devices.
This is achievable thorugh the use of Nokia's Zero-Toucg vectoring.

wratterus:

Once it's all enabled from Chorus's end, is there a sure fire way to confirm whether it's working or not from looking at a modem?

Looking at the Draytek DV130 for example - the STD firmware it ships with doesn't seem to be compatible, but 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 are - on Draytek's firmware release notes, they recommend 8 for the NBN, but the Oz Draytek site recommends 4 for AU and NZ - both support Vectoring, but use a different Modem Code.

Is Chorus's implementation of Vectoring identical to what's being used for the NBN, or is it slightly different?

Yes, modems will typically state in their DSL stats that Vectoring is running.
NBNCo do not use Zero-Touch, otherwise it is equivalent.

wratterus:

Edit - One other question too - I know Vectoring is only for VDSL, but would the benefits of being able to run VDSL lines at lower power level, which in turn I assume would reduce crosstalk, actually benefit ADSL lines further out on the same cabinet?

Not really, as Vectoring will not be running below 2.2Mhz to protect the ADSL lines.
Might see some of the effect you are talking about, but I dont expect it to be significant.

BMarquis

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#1867177 16-Sep-2017 07:57

hio77:

BMarquis:

Definitely G.INP in conjuntion with Vectoring.

Feel free to use WAK/C as a testcase ;)

Zero Touch is the interesting bit of all of this, I'm yet to actually come across a paper that explains how the tech actually manages to mitigate the effect of lines that are not vectoring compatible.

The snobby in me who just wants to see VDSL at its best says drop zero touch and just boot all those customers off the network. RSP can provide a working device and all the crappy third party modems can go!

Dreams are free right?

WAK/C - nope :)

Zero-Touch is a Nokia solution, they dont want it copied.
The ISAM knows which CPE are not Vectoring friendly or capable, then the ISAM can cancel a non-vectoring modem's downstream signal on the affected vectored lines - as the crosstalk can still be calculated.
From what I've seen it works really well, and the main limitation is no upstream vectoring. The new line card which supports vectoring is, anecdotally, performing better upstream anyway.

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#1867180 16-Sep-2017 08:29

Theclaytons:

I wonder what the Christchurch area would be - most of Christchurch has fibre already through enable (or is coming soon). Hoping for Kirwee!

It looks like it will be in Kirwee.

https://www.crowninfrastructure.govt.nz/ufb-initiative/ultra-fast-broadband-extension/

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